amuck-landowner

Networking Hardware

HalfEatenPie

The Irrational One
Retired Staff
I was talking with a few close friends who work full time for ISPs around in the United States and it got on the topic of networking hardware.

Now, I will 100% admit this isn't my strong suite and I really need to brush up even more on my reading, but what do you look for in networking hardware?  Is it the software/OS (e.g. JunOS), is it the warranty (if applicable) that comes with it?  Is it the actual hardware? 

Apparently there's a company attempting to set a standard platform for the Ethernet switches for all the different switch operating systems named WhiteBox.  Unlike Cisco and Juniper Networks hardware who come with their own respective operating systems, these switches comes with Cumulus Linux.  Would you trust/use an alternative/open-source solution?  Or would you rather invest in Cisco or Juniper Network Hardware?  

Basically...  what makes people go for Cisco/Juniper Network/Ubiquiti/Brocade hardware?  
 
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concerto49

New Member
Verified Provider
Knowledge. People that know how to use these platforms. That it's tried and tested. Very important when it's production and not experimental. Need to ensure it will work and not just a spec sheet.
 

TruvisT

Server Management Specialist
Verified Provider
I was talking with a few close friends who work full time for ISPs around in the United States and it got on the topic of networking hardware.

Now, I will 100% admit this isn't my strong suite and I really need to brush up even more on my reading, but what do you look for in networking hardware?  Is it the software/OS (e.g. JunOS), is it the warranty (if applicable) that comes with it?  Is it the actual hardware? 

Apparently there's a company attempting to set a standard platform for the Ethernet switches for all the different switch operating systems named WhiteBox.  Unlike Cisco and Juniper Networks hardware who come with their own respective operating systems, these switches comes with Cumulus Linux.  Would you trust/use an alternative/open-source solution?  Or would you rather invest in Cisco or Juniper Network Hardware?  

Basically...  what makes people go for Cisco/Juniper Network/Ubiquiti/Brocade hardware?  
The reason I buy based on brand is support, trust, proven track record/reliability. When I was updating all switches to dedicated 1gbps switches, I went with TP Link because I started using their hardware and found it very easy to use for and small businesses so I've been using them. They had good reviews as well which helped push me in their favor over netgear who I have been a big user of in the past.

The only reason I would want to go open source is if I could add custom modules or services in. Reason why I started building custom pfsense boxes. I like pfsense over cisco and others who charge a crazy amount of license fees that I can do for free with pfsense. This works well for small businesses. Now in some cases the fees for these brand name devices are actually worth the money. I went to a conference which talked a lot about network security and hardware devices and what some of the vendors are doing with virtualizing in the firewall to run unknown applications to see if they are time bombs and what not, which you generally will not find in open source or other devices. While this extends outside the topic of switches, it really comes down to how much your business or network is worth, what you want to acheive and then how much do you want to spend.
 
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VPSCorey

New Member
Verified Provider
I love me some Arista.  You can customize the Linux OS and who wouldnt want a switch that can do tcpdump on any port :)

Eases troubleshooting.
 
I was talking with a few close friends who work full time for ISPs around in the United States and it got on the topic of networking hardware.

Now, I will 100% admit this isn't my strong suite and I really need to brush up even more on my reading, but what do you look for in networking hardware?  Is it the software/OS (e.g. JunOS), is it the warranty (if applicable) that comes with it?  Is it the actual hardware? 

Apparently there's a company attempting to set a standard platform for the Ethernet switches for all the different switch operating systems named WhiteBox.  Unlike Cisco and Juniper Networks hardware who come with their own respective operating systems, these switches comes with Cumulus Linux.  Would you trust/use an alternative/open-source solution?  Or would you rather invest in Cisco or Juniper Network Hardware?  

Basically...  what makes people go for Cisco/Juniper Network/Ubiquiti/Brocade hardware?  
I can't speak for Brocade anymore because their stuff is still buggy, and I don't know anything with Ubiquiti. 

Back in the mid 1990s, the first true network device i ever messed with was a 7206VXR, which was a pile of shit in a way because of it's crippled hardware<->software. It was massively expensive, too. But, cisco devices /were/ the way to go for switching and routing (baynetworks had good switches but they were more expensive than cisco, same with alpine gigE)

Everyone practically was a cisco shop, and if you were not, you were not an ISP. Once that mindset came across to the elite N.E's of various providers like exodus, psinet, globix and others, you'd be hard pressed to even do business without using cisco. 

Since that has occurred, you had a massive amount of market share from cisco, until people realized in the early 2000s you can go to juniper to get core switching gear that can do more for less. Only problem is, no one wanted to use a CLI that wasn't just like IOS. So early s/w versions of junipers gear was terrible and was not IOS-like. But, Juniper learned and so did the others, as long as you made a cli that was similar to ciscos (and not to the point where they could sue you) your 'shop' could adapt to using different vendors. 

Brocade/Foundry stuff is pretty awful due to 'quirks' they have to use for their onboard ASICs from the software point of view and other general nonsense.

Personally, Cisco stuff still works, but it's still expensive to buy outright. I always have a special place in my heart for IOS because it's the defacto standard, and you at least know on paper of a devices actual PPS. Juniper isn't bad either, since they use FreeBSD for their management engine OS (and they've contributed code back, unlike the open source liars Linksys, Dlink and others). I don't really trust using 'linux' for a mission critical switch, to be honest. 

Just remember, keep it simple. Don't buy a switch/route a sales guy is trying to get you to buy, research it for your needs. Check it's PPS. Check to make sure you need layer3 (or dont). Cisco is still great with 24/7/365/4hr TAC support, unsure of Juniper. And for gods sake, stay away from no name companies.

In a nutshell, I look for this

1.) Switch performance. This is in raw PPS with a MTU of 1500. The higher, the better.

2.) Port latency. This is a little difficult to get through some vendors, but lower latency under load usually means the switch is pretty CPU for store and forward.

3.) Jumbo frame support. This is great for my local networks for doing high bandwidth transfers and an MTU of 1500 just has too much overhead; A high MTU (4096 or 9044) will allow the OS to use something called 'page flipping' which reduces CPU overhead doing copy-on-writes from the nic card

4.) VLAN tagging. Useful to do isolation.

5.) Basic layer3/4 features like BGP (hard to find unless you want a large 48 port switch) or OSPF. 
 
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HalfEatenPie

The Irrational One
Retired Staff
I can't speak for Brocade anymore because their stuff is still buggy, and I don't know anything with Ubiquiti. 

Back in the mid 1990s, the first true network device i ever messed with was a 7206VXR, which was a pile of shit in a way because of it's crippled hardware<->software. It was massively expensive, too. But, cisco devices /were/ the way to go for switching and routing (baynetworks had good switches but they were more expensive than cisco, same with alpine gigE)

Everyone practically was a cisco shop, and if you were not, you were not an ISP. Once that mindset came across to the elite N.E's of various providers like exodus, psinet, globix and others, you'd be hard pressed to even do business without using cisco. 

Since that has occurred, you had a massive amount of market share from cisco, until people realized in the early 2000s you can go to juniper to get core switching gear that can do more for less. Only problem is, no one wanted to use a CLI that wasn't just like IOS. So early s/w versions of junipers gear was terrible and was not IOS-like. But, Juniper learned and so did the others, as long as you made a cli that was similar to ciscos (and not to the point where they could sue you) your 'shop' could adapt to using different vendors. 

Brocade/Foundry stuff is pretty awful due to 'quirks' they have to use for their onboard ASICs from the software point of view and other general nonsense.

Personally, Cisco stuff still works, but it's still expensive to buy outright. I always have a special place in my heart for IOS because it's the defacto standard, and you at least know on paper of a devices actual PPS. Juniper isn't bad either, since they use FreeBSD for their management engine OS (and they've contributed code back, unlike the open source liars Linksys, Dlink and others). I don't really trust using 'linux' for a mission critical switch, to be honest. 

Just remember, keep it simple. Don't buy a switch/route a sales guy is trying to get you to buy, research it for your needs. Check it's PPS. Check to make sure you need layer3 (or dont). Cisco is still great with 24/7/365/4hr TAC support, unsure of Juniper. And for gods sake, stay away from no name companies.

In a nutshell, I look for this

1.) Switch performance. This is in raw PPS with a MTU of 1500. The higher, the better.

2.) Port latency. This is a little difficult to get through some vendors, but lower latency under load usually means the switch is pretty CPU for store and forward.

3.) Jumbo frame support. This is great for my local networks for doing high bandwidth transfers and an MTU of 1500 just has too much overhead; A high MTU (4096 or 9044) will allow the OS to use something called 'page flipping' which reduces CPU overhead doing copy-on-writes from the nic card

4.) VLAN tagging. Useful to do isolation.

5.) Basic layer3/4 features like BGP (hard to find unless you want a large 48 port switch) or OSPF. 
Love it thanks!

It sounds like Cisco is running the show for most of the time (purely network-wise).  I mean I know most of the major corporate/academic infrastructures I've had the pleasure of using or hearing about were all on Cisco hardware.  From routers and switches to VoIP phones.  I mean I've heard Juniper is probably the second largest company (by a pretty big distance though) but you don't really hear their network being used by many large companies.  

I recall John Hopkins University's old student VPN was based off of the Juniper client, but then they later switched to Cisco hardware after some troubles.  Of course this was 2008 or so but still.  I also recall around that time that Penn State and Colorado State utilized Cisco hardware and also used the Cisco client for the longest time.  In addition, I know currently GM and AT&T and other major companies utilize Cisco services (VPN, Jabber, etc.).  What I'm asking here is that it sounds like Cisco is still the de-facto for almost everything.  Is it mostly because they offer good support similar to how Dell does it?  
 
Love it thanks!

It sounds like Cisco is running the show for most of the time (purely network-wise).  I mean I know most of the major corporate/academic infrastructures I've had the pleasure of using or hearing about were all on Cisco hardware.  From routers and switches to VoIP phones.  I mean I've heard Juniper is probably the second largest company (by a pretty big distance though) but you don't really hear their network being used by many large companies.  

I recall John Hopkins University's old student VPN was based off of the Juniper client, but then they later switched to Cisco hardware after some troubles.  Of course this was 2008 or so but still.  I also recall around that time that Penn State and Colorado State utilized Cisco hardware and also used the Cisco client for the longest time.  In addition, I know currently GM and AT&T and other major companies utilize Cisco services (VPN, Jabber, etc.).  What I'm asking here is that it sounds like Cisco is still the de-facto for almost everything.  Is it mostly because they offer good support similar to how Dell does it?  
Cisco is pretty good, but if you want to piss off your sales rep, simply say you're also getting quotes from Juniper/Force10 and they will bash them which is unprofessional. 

Personally, I use netgear layer2 devices as they are generally affordable and 'work' out of the box. For layer3 switches, I'll grab a 35xx based Cisco Switch (non PoE, because I like cheap electric bills!) 

For routing, I'll stick with Juniper. Why? They don't require a kidney to use things like SFlow and other things. The switch modules are priced better for the performance you get, unlike Cisco, who wants your soul for a 65xx based cat switch fully loaded with sup720 and IDS based blade. Cisco does at times release inferior products that more expensive than what they replace, ie:

Find a Cisco 6500 based chassis and then look for a sup2, msfc2 line card. Find the specs for the PPS for that one. Now, look for a sup32, which at the time it was released, was MORE expensive and was not as fast as the sup2/msfc2 and just generally a piece of shit. 

A lot of people are familiar with Cisco, more so than other vendors because of what I said previously, but some of the other vendors are simply not that great for mission critical stuff. I'd rather drink gasoline than use brocade stuff, though.
 

concerto49

New Member
Verified Provider
It sounds like Cisco is running the show for most of the time (purely network-wise).  I mean I know most of the major corporate/academic infrastructures I've had the pleasure of using or hearing about were all on Cisco hardware.  From routers and switches to VoIP phones.  I mean I've heard Juniper is probably the second largest company (by a pretty big distance though) but you don't really hear their network being used by many large companies.  
Mostly for legacy reasons. Had them in 20 years ago and got used to it and/or can't afford to upgrade. Cisco is trying to catch up again, but they've been sleeping for a while.
 

MonsteR

New Member
Hardware is all good, but you need to consider more then just the hardware its self, For example you would be paying around $15/25k yearly for support from the vender which is most cases is needed, Unless you have your own people who are really good at networking. Even then its recommended you use the venders support for updates etc.
 

CentralHosts

New Member
Verified Provider
Admins like to stick with what they know and have used in the past. Price can definitely be a factor for admins on which networking equipment to go with as well. 
 
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