# Iraq 2014 - Viet Nam 1975



## raindog308 (Jun 17, 2014)

So I read:


US forces occupied a country with a history of political instability

Insurgents hostile to the West, partially based in an adjacent country undergoing a civil war,  are surging once we've pulled out of the country
The client regime begs for support
The client regime is thoroughly corrupt and elitist
The US President dithers and might do airstrikes, but the country is sour on the idea and sure as hell doesn't want more years of ground fighting
We may see helicopters evacuating embassy staff
Viet Nam 1975 or Iraq 2014?

 

The parallel is eerie.

 

I feel extraordinarily bad for the average Iraqi.  I can't imagine what it'd be like to be a Shiite in some small town in central Iraq knowing that this giant military force that feels you should be put to death is grinding towards you.  In  Viet Nam, at least everyone saw each other as a fellow Vietnamese, albeit perhaps misguided.  In Iraq, Sunnis see Shias as evil to be exterminated.


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## devonblzx (Jun 17, 2014)

Fortunately, Shias are the majority in Iraq and the Iraqi army outnumbers the ISIS by a large margin.  If it was reversed then we could have seen another Rwanda-like genocide. The problem is the Iraqi Army is young and seems undisciplined and unready for the attacks.  It is a horrible thing happening there, but hopefully they will be able to stabilize the area themselves in time.  I don't think it has to do with all Sunnis, it has to do with radical Sunnis.  I'm sure there are a large percentage of Sunnis that want peace in the region as well.


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## raindog308 (Jun 17, 2014)

devonblzx said:


> I don't think it has to do with all Sunnis, it has to do with radical Sunnis.  I'm sure there are a large percentage of Sunnis that want peace in the region as well.


You're right - I didn't mean to sound anti-Sunni - not my intent.  I should have said ISIS instead of Sunni.

Sunnis are such a huge population in the world - all the way from Morocco to Indonesia.


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## MannDude (Jun 17, 2014)

I think this can be applied to any discussion regarding any specific people from any region of the world.

Unfortunately I am not familiar enough to discuss the issues in great length, so consider this my only contribution.


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## fixidixi (Jun 17, 2014)

Nice one @MannDude

I think the same: it somehow never seems right when someone picks a religion(or any other idea /like "bringing democracy to you which you may have never known but its the perfect sollution for everyting"/) as a reason to force themselves on another country..


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## raindog308 (Jun 17, 2014)

MannDude said:


>


Yeah, those people in Antarctica are JERKS.  Every single one.


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## GIANT_CRAB (Jun 17, 2014)

Obomba says "we're leaving Iraq"
the so-called "victory for democracy" elected president begs for Obomba to welp
Obomba says "LETS BOMB IT"


Its okay, we'll just continue wasting tax payers money and making the weapon-making industry richer.

Its only nearly 6 trillion debt, we'll just raise the debt ceiling and continue making the lives of the youths more miserable.

Everything is okay, there's nothing to worry about at all.

EDIT: Btw, if you have any questions, ask Guardian - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/17/iraq-crisis-isis-experts-answers-questions-iran


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## drmike (Jun 17, 2014)

Vietnam was about looting their gold by the transport plane full.

These modern wars? I swear we are stealing ancient artifacts in Iraq and contaminating the ancient cities there to keep something out of there and I am not thinking insurgents.

But, it all comparatively ends there.

Vietnam was a US mass death procession.   We left many soldiers behind.  We failed to care them afterwards.

Vietnam was forced enslavement, being drafted into the war machine.  Today, we have volunteers.

Iraq deathes are far less.   POWs in Iraq, do we have any incidents?  Opposition forces have been nil.  The Vietnamese fought long, hard and ruthlessly in Nam against us.

We aren't leaving Iraq.  We need more theaters of war to prop up our bullshit service e-con-o-me.  Instead, Oblama will convert from active duty military on ground to entirely private, for profit, merchant / business presence.  Such has long been in excess of enlisted soldiers in Iraq.


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## blergh (Jun 18, 2014)




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## texteditor (Jun 18, 2014)

drmike said:


> Vietnam was a US mass death procession.   We left many soldiers behind.  We failed to care them afterwards.


Um, I'm pretty sure the U.S. government still hasn't gotten over its habit of treating vets like shit. Hell, people like John McCain fought in Vietnam yet are still in favor of majorly limiting benefits to all veterans except those who commit to career-length terms


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## drmike (Jun 18, 2014)

John McCain should have been court martialed and sent to Leavenworth for his antics when enlisted.  

Him being a POW, meh, I really am not buying it.

I know he totalled no less than two birds and in retarded ways, while not in combat.

I mean McCain's father was who again  ?

"

During the Vietnam War, McCain was Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Command (CINCPAC), commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater from 1968 to 1972. He was a stalwart supporter of President Richard Nixon's policy of Vietnamization. McCain played a significant role in the militarization of U.S. policy towards Cambodia, helping to convince Nixon to launch the 1970 Cambodian Incursion and establishing a personal relationship with Cambodian leader Lon Nol. McCain was also a proponent of the 1971 incursion into Laos. McCain retired from the Navy in 1972.

His father, John S. McCain, Sr., was also an admiral in the Navy and a naval aviator, and the two were the first father-son pair to achieve four-star rank.[1] His son, John S. McCain III, is a former naval aviator who was a prisoner of war in North Vietnam during McCain's time as CINCPAC, who retired with the rank of captain"

Quite ahhh the theater that the CINCPAC commander's son and Vietnam trouble maker has his son flying birds and being a "POW".   I mean, I encourage more of these folks to ensign their offpsring and march them off to death instead of my children, especially in these circus wars.  But again, I don't buy the fiction and I know much has been wrote about McCain the plane crashers stay behind enemy lines and it doesn't seem to jive with the political hay he was putting down when he ran for top office.

This piece from Rolling Stone in 2008 should get the writer a lifetime achievement award:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/make-believe-maverick-20081016


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## raindog308 (Jun 18, 2014)

I really have a hard time buying the idea that the US Military was looting planefuls of gold out of Viet Nam and antiquities out of Iraq.  At the scale the US government operates at, neither would be worth their time.  Not to say the US motives were pure but spending $3 trillion to look a few million in old pottery...no.

And McCain was a genuine POW.  I mean, Rolling Stone!?  Rolling Stone will publish _anything_ as long as it's tinfoil hat nonsense.  Hunter S. Thompson was the most serious journalist they ever had and he was proudly lit up on drugs his entire life.


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## notFound (Jun 18, 2014)

I'm not really that familliar with all the details of American's recent involvements and internal polictics related to it, but it was an eventuality that a group like ISIS would come out, when those people that are fighting for ISIS were kids they witnessed their country put in termoil and they were ruined by the war. The 'international powers' should have seen this coming.

ISIS are terrorists and should be dealt with that way, but they've gotten quite strong now, they are ruining Syria, now Iraq. The situation in Iraq with Sunnis and Shias is quite complex, the Sunnis are quite upset with the Shias because the Americans came in and got the Shias in power and it basically is just like tribal rivalry. Violence exists between both sides, it's not one sided but ISIS as of recent times have taken it to an exteme.



raindog308 said:


> In Iraq, Sunnis see Shias as evil to be exterminated.


That's a bit of a statement.

Honestly, it is a shame to see coutnies which once lived in very good harmony between lots of different groups of people in utter ruin.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Jun 18, 2014)

notFound said:


> That's a bit of a statement.





raindog308 said:


> You're right - I didn't mean to sound anti-Sunni - not my intent.  I should have said ISIS instead of Sunni.


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## tchen (Jun 18, 2014)

Kinda makes me sad some people don't consider McCain to be a POW. He wasn't the movie hero POW that movies tend to gravitate towards, but none of the 600 were either. He had your typical POW treatment (not good nor pretty) and some had it worse for longer. But if you're fishing for some imaginary line that's required to be considered a 'true' POW just because you don't like that one individual, you've pretty much pissed on every other serviceman who had it easier than he did.


/clap


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## blergh (Jun 18, 2014)

John McCain, John McClane - same same but different.


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## Onra Host (Jun 18, 2014)

GIANT_CRAB said:


> Its only nearly 6 trillion debt, we'll just raise the debt ceiling and continue making the lives of the youths more miserable.


Well technically speaking the world currently runs 100% on a debt banking system. If debt is eliminated, then the world economy crashes instantly. So no debt = no money. Inflation raises _at around 2% _a year to spurn this.


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## texteditor (Jun 19, 2014)

GIANT_CRAB said:


> Its only nearly 6 trillion debt, we'll just raise the debt ceiling and continue making the lives of the youths more miserable.


While I agree that we've spent a lot of borrowed money on stupid shit and lining the pockets of defense contractors too much, the ability to take on debt is basically an inherently useful tool for governments. The costs of principle payments on accumulated debt can often be miniscule compared to the economic benefits gained by properly invested borrowed money.

Plus, like Onrahost said, world economics basically fall apart without it

Also it's worth noting that, like, more than a third of our national debt is held by other U.S. government institutions, and of the other ~2/3s of it owned by the public, only roughly half of that is owned by foreign institutions. America is doing really goddamn well as far as national debt is concerned, has a history of leveraging itself at worse ratios of debt/GDP (see, 1950) which it has been able to pay off, and America has tons and tons of resources as a country that will become more useful as time goes on (for example, lots of untapped energy resources) to pay off debt, should the need arise.

If you want to see a country whose future generations are actually proper fucked in regards to public debt, look at Japan.


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## drmike (Jun 19, 2014)

raindog308 said:


> I really have a hard time buying the idea that the US Military was looting planefuls of gold out of Viet Nam and antiquities out of Iraq.  At the scale the US government operates at, neither would be worth their time.  Not to say the US motives were pure but spending $3 trillion to look a few million in old pottery...no.
> 
> And McCain was a genuine POW.  I mean, Rolling Stone!?  Rolling Stone will publish _anything_ as long as it's tinfoil hat nonsense.  Hunter S. Thompson was the most serious journalist they ever had and he was proudly lit up on drugs his entire life.


_I really have a hard time buying the idea that the US Military was looting planefuls of gold out of Viet Nam and antiquities out of Iraq.  At the scale the US government operates at, neither would be worth their time._

No, the US was in both to save the people from....? We were there to save the brown people from....?  We are benevolent, just were their to save them from oppressive leaders we put in place... ho hum. 

Every war is about resource theft. Feel free to share your alternative theory though.

Meh, Hunter S. Thompson = drugs...  Imagine that...  I never was a fan of his work, though many are.  He's known for semi-autobiographical drug trip "stories" and well, nothing that stood time for investigative journalism.    Funny though that we slap the liberal writer/creative about his drug use, while the CIA and government of these United States has been running the import/export market since at least the 1950's.

Afghanistan, we aren't there for the poppy crop and the opium   No of course we aren't....  Couldn't be... Well it is... admitted... that US soldiers are on duty PROTECTING the poppy fields.... http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/14066.html  - Taliban or whoever the fundamentalists in charge were prior to our incursion, they suppressed the poppy crop, drove up international opiate prices.   The US can't have any of that, as we consume over 80% of the opiates on the planet annually.  But it can't be that, cause money spent on opiates can't be that big


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## drmike (Jun 19, 2014)

texteditor said:


> While I agree that we've spent a lot of borrowed money on stupid shit and lining the pockets of defense contractors too much, the ability to take on debt is basically an inherently useful tool for governments. The costs of principle payments on accumulated debt can often be miniscule compared to the economic benefits gained by properly invested borrowed money.
> 
> Plus, like Onrahost said, world economics basically fall apart without it
> 
> ...


KEY WORDS: PROPERTY INVESTED BORROWED MONEY.

War is a racket.   It's not a sustainable economic investment.  It has blippy gains/profits, sort of as needed/as consumed.  Otherwise you are just extracting fear dollars from a spanked public and the leadership that fleeces them.  Only can arm so many and for so long before it dries up (long overdue).

R&D in an ugly way is military driven in the US.  That's something that needs to stop. Visit our top univesities and follow the funding.

We'd get a lot further with a creative economy for the betterment of humans than we would with the explotation of young minds with death and murder.

Now Japan, they got smacked by international monetary games the US was running during the 1980's.  Their decline wasn't just their own doing.    Biggest issues they have and limited cap on economy:  1. Aging population,  2. Low birth rate / rate of human replacement.  Right now Japan has a birth replacement rate of 1.37.   Anyting beneath 2.x is inevitable futurecasted mass economic slowdown problem (lack of buyers for real estate from older folks, lack of large purchases for home products, lack of economic generation in the economy).  Then Japan has the whole radioactivity issue due to aging and destroyed nuclear generation, which in theory should end them up in international disputes about the toxic poisoning and could very well bankrupt them.  Never mind one of the USA's biggest companies sold them such crap and allowed them to mis-operate such (thank you GE).


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## nunim (Jun 19, 2014)

In my mind, the entire Middle East conflict boils down to:

 It's very hot and there's no water.

Everyone goes on and one about invading Iraq for oil, you know who's the largest supplier of foreign oil to the USA?

Saudi Arabia? Nope.

Canada (by a large margin).

Sadly, we're not going to change much of anything in Iraq or Afghanistan. I wish we would but sadly the public won't tolerate the decades long occupation that would be necessary for true democracy to be established.   It was truly silly to believe that we could invade and leave a stable democracy behind 10 years later.

There is no quick solution to these problems, aside from turning the Middle East into radioactive glass.


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