# Lowendbox is a corrupt marketplace



## drmike

This is another piece of original research you are only going to see on vpsBoard.

If you've been in this market sector for more than a few days, you probably are familiar with the Lowendtalk website.  If you are a provider you probably also are aware of the prolonged delays in seeing your offers appear there (if at all).  That is unless you are a Colocrossing customer.

While the claim gets tossed around that the marketplace is corrupt there, no one has crunched the numbers.  

I just performed that task and here are the results showing the downward decline of Lowendtalk offers. 

Key things to note:

1. The big hacks of Lowendtalk occurred around May 15.  That resulted in this community coming into public view and many Colocrossing critics abandoning LET and LEB.

2. A company is affiliated where a company has existing services with CC, even though offer may not be at a CC location.

*Summary findings:*

1. Total offers on LEB has decreased every month for 5 months.

2. % of offers that are CC related has increased every month except one.

3. % of offers that are CC has ballooned from 21% in April to over 41% in August

4. Offers that ran as last offer for multiple days increased every month for past 5 months.

5. Offers that ran as last for multiple days that were CC increased for a low of 25% to a high of 54% in August.

*Summary totals:*

*August 2013*
Offers: 24
Affiliated with CC: 10
% of offers that are CC: 41.66%
Offers from later affiliated with CC: --
Offers that ran as last for multiple days: 11
Offers that ran as last for multiple days that were CC: 6 (54%)

*July 2013*
Offers: 26
Affiliated with CC: 9
% of offers that are CC: 34.61%
Offers from later affiliated with CC: 1
Offers that ran as last for multiple days: 8
Offers that ran as last for multiple days that were CC: 4 (50%)

*June 2013*
Offers: 31
Affiliated with CC: 10
% of offers that are CC: 32.25%
Offers from later affiliated with CC: 1
Offers that ran as last for multiple days: 7
Offers that ran as last for multiple days that were CC: 2 (28.57%)

*May 2013*
Offers: 36
Affiliated with CC: 12
% of offers that are CC: 33%
Offers from later affiliated with CC: -
Offers that ran as last for multiple days: 4
Offers that ran as last for multiple days that were CC: 1 (25%)

*April 2013*
Offers: 57
Affiliated with CC: 12
% of offers that are CC: 21%
Offers from later affiliated with CC: 2
Offers that ran as last for multiple days: 0


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## Jack

buffalooed said:


> This is another piece of original research you are only going to see on vpsBoard.


Can I repost on LET?


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## drmike

Oh feel free to send it out to the IRC channels, LEB and LET


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## MannDude

Oh boy. Good write-up and research.


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## drmike

As for @DomainBop's comment on LET



> Could that possibly be because Liam announced in May that the number of offers posted on LEB would be decreasing and they would be increasing other types of content like useful articles/tutorials?


While this might be true (I haven't ran those numbers, but I will).  

What you note from the numbers I providers is that:

1. The total offers have decreased.

2. Colocrossing's hogging of the offers stands at 41.66% of August's offers, up from the low of 21%.

3. Colocrossing was under a quarter of all ads on LEB, now they are  under half.

4. Since May 15, there have been 16 tutorials on LEB.

4.5 All tutorials have been published by Maarten Kossen.

5. One of Kossen's  tutorials is  plagiarized.  Big chunks of the copy are wholesale stolen from another author.   More on that later.


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## jarland

Meanwhile, at the colocrossing office...


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## SkylarM

I don't know why anyone would consider this a surprise. Lets break it down

Company sells Servers with a rather large aim at the VPS market

Company owns a website dedicated to listing low cost VPS services.

Company favors posts that utilize their servers, as more exposure means more clients, which in turn means the need for more nodes from company.

The issue can't be viewed as ColoCrossing monetizing what they own, the issue should be the fact they own the thing to begin with. LE* being sold quietly to a major player in the market is a much bigger issue than a company using what is theirs to get more money in their own pockets.

If Coca-Cola owns a Football stadium, would you be angry if they only sold Coke products?

Edit: I'm not a CC fanboy, I'm actively pursuing alternatives to CC for Los Angeles and will have something non cc soon. Primarily "company policy" to not announce IPs for customers, when they have a huge section of IPs from other companies being announced under their ASN.


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## drmike

Meanwhile at the Colocrossing office.



"We offer a good value to the market segment that's why we have deep penetration here."


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## drmike

@SkylarM,

Here's my response:



> I don't know why anyone would consider this a surprise


It isn't, just to the degree that that their coverage of their house-owned companies and customers are being pushed compared to the MUCH truly larger business crowd offering competing services.

Do we believe that CC has half of all VPS companies even on the low end sitting on their network?  No way they are at that size.



> Company favors posts that utilize their servers, as more exposure means more clients, which in turn means the need for more nodes from company.


Is that a morally right or ethical thing to do?  No it isn't.  That was why Lowend Admin refused to sell the site(s) to Colocrossing and every other provider that made an offer to purchase.

Actually, it probably isn't even legal to do what they are doing.   At minimum it shows terrible judgment and ill intent to hijack an entire market segment.



> LE* being sold quietly to a major player in the market is a much bigger issue than a company using what is theirs to get more money in their own pockets.


This is so right on target and what I've been saying for eons.

If we revisit how LET/LEB were acquired by CC, we see:

1. CC tried to buy LEB/LET and were told to fuck off

2. Lowend Admin turned the site over to Joel, a community member when LEAdmin became "disinterested" in the sites.

3. In under 30 days of Joel having control of the sites:

    A. The sites got DDoS'd offline

    B. A big APB went out to find the dupe/fraudster.

    C. Webhostingtalk was attacked for uttering anything about LET/LEB.  Put offline.

    D. After a week of mainly downtime, the LET/LEB sites were whisked away to Colocrossing's network, a network that doesn't have DDoS mitigation.  

    E. The theatrics stopped.  The attacks stopped.  No one really noticed the change of ownership.

    F. Joel got a check and monthly payments thereafter from CC.

Whatever details aren't 100%, well they are damn close and some of us were telling the community that then.



> If Coca-Cola owns a Football stadium, would you be angry if they only sold Coke products?


No, not if I knew those details.  Now if they hid that for, oh umm, say 15 months then surely, I would and should be upset.

If they want to LOWENDBOX, a site for Colocrossing's CraZy Company Deals, then note it.

Look at the front of Lowendtalk.... Where is the Colocrossing owns this or "a brand of Colocrosssing Velocity Game Servers"?

Look at the front of Lowendbox... Where is the Colocrossing owns this or "a brand of Colocrosssing Velocity Game Servers"?  It says "LowEndBox hosted by colocrossing".  Hosted by?  Yeah.



> I'm not a CC fanboy


I entirely believe you. 

There is this magic page from your signature: https://crissic.net/transparency

It says:



> Our objective is not to lie to customers....
> 
> We focus on transparency....
> 
> We don't sugar coat our offers or lie to you to get your business. We want you to use our services because you know you can trust us.


You really out to send that over to Colocrossing.   You get it.  I get it.

Unfortunately, by continuing to mask many things, Colocrossing is being deceptive.  Manipulating the market.  Subjecting consumers on their network to often less than optimal experiences, mass over subscribed nodes, security lacking info disclosures and putting said customers next to plenty of sites, users and content you wouldn't want to be living next door to in reality.


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## drmike

> I'm betting that the sales generated per CC-LEB offer has decreased in proportion to the increase in CC-LEB offers.


100% agree, but they won't ever fess up.   Buffalo is a hard sell minus all the well earned negativity (i.e. sales ads with "not a CC network") or similar.

It's that bad.   The providers that are in Buffalo, don't let most of them kid you.  They can't afford to move elsewhere.  Who else is hording IPs and giving them away.   Smart, but it's a suckers bait.   When Biloh starts hitting folks with a 25 cent or 50 cent per IP charge, those hosts will have to pay up or go elsewhere and pay much more.



> ...small unknown CC hosts who are getting their offers posted now are probably receiving far less benefit (i.e. sales) from a LEB posting than unknown hosts did on LEB 1-2 years agoTo keep the dialogue open with that good man @DomainBop over on LET:


Absolutely, there are few new providers getting attention like they use to on LEB or LET.  Mainly the attention is for whack $15 a year 1GB plans and 2GB RAM for $2-3 a month.  Both are proven unsustainable, except where you forgo:

1. Security

2. Staff

3. Regard for the customer

and where in year two none of those folks stay on the same losing money plan.



> TL;DR: the increase in CC offers on LEB may be helping CC but it could actually be hurting the smaller,newer CC hosts.


It is.  It is giving them leverage over insolvent companies and their customers, as the assets.  HudsonValleyHost comes to mind with a customer here saying that Colocrossing billed his credit card, even though he was a customer of HVH:

http://vpsboard.com/topic/540-is-hvh-owned-by-colocrossing/

As for the actual new companies and harm from the CC control over LEB.  No doubt that to survive in their minds, you must have visibility in LET/LEB.  Your options are win the lottery to have offer shown on LEB (that's how many more established companies have even felt recently - until the problematic customers sign up and abuse becomes their fulltime job) or to outright buy advertising on LET/LEB --- which is bringing in from BSA alone pre-costs $96k a year at last calculation.

Now, I think these new companies are borderline ahhh, retarded jumping into this shark tank of an industry that makes Chinese product dumping and worker abuses globally look like another good day at the office.

There have always been problems and unsavory dealers of services, but things have really gone off the deep end with a number of wanna-be-lowended hosts.


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## WebSearchingPro

Someone brought it up on LET earlier. Liam I think it was.

The number of CC offers is significantly higher because a vast majority of providers use CC.

The real kicker would be getting the amount of offers / month that LEB receives, not just what is actually posted. What actually gets posted is not the whole side of the story. Just half.

However I do agree that CC companies get fast-tracked offers. But it is in their own interest to push their own offers - can't really hold it against them at some point, even though the whole idea of LE* has been watered down since its been sold.


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## drmike

The number I believe @WebSearchingPro was 70% of the offers submitted are from CC based companies.  I don't doubt it, those newbs probably get an introductory email with their "Instant $99 become a VPS provider" solution from Colocrossing, that says in part:



> "...And be active on LET, not elsewhere."


We have to remember here that Liam was there as the LET community guy when the multiple hacks occurred.   He claims he didn't know about Colocrossing and that he was deceived like the rest of us.

Here today, he's still over there in his role collecting that blood money from Colocrossing.

Surely, what ever Jon/Alex says is the line he tows.

But next time LEB gets hacked and we all have administrator access, we'll see more of the lies they perpetuated.

Big question folks ought to be asking is if CC has sooooo many of their customers posting offers, why do they have oh well over a dozen offers from one company that runs 3-4 or more shell companies pretending to be different companies?  Dozen offers or more inside of this year.

Perhaps with all the spin, they get confused


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## Aldryic C'boas

To be honest, those are lower numbers than I was expecting to see - given how often this is talked about, I figured it would be something like 70-85%.  On the fair approach though, I'm still of the firm belief that LET was fast becoming a shithole  right when Joel took over - I was never really active on LEB anyways (the nested comments are just annoying to keep up with), and I'd long since abandoned the piss and mud-slinging contest that LET had become before the DDoS and takeover really occurred.

Their ownership of LE* never really bugged me.  After all, nearly every business has their own marketing department;  you can't even go for a drive down the road without a new advertisement every three feet.  I could even wax poetic about how 'community' isn't something that really exists any more; after all, you didn't think that Facebook was actually a _social_ tool as opposed to a _monetary_ one, did you?  But enough about that..

I have two issues with ColoCrossing:  the first one being the rampant dishonesty.  Going back to the 'every business[...]marketing' example - nobody really gives a damn about them advertising what they want to advertise on a site they bought and paid for.  Sure, it ruins the original point of the community, but if anyone is to blame there it's Joel for being such a greedy cunt.  What irritates me (and likely you as well) is that they feel it's perfectly okay to tell blatant lies;  and then have the gall to expect that they would still be trusted.  Although there is one advantage to that, which I'll get to in a bit.

The dishonesty isn't just public, either.  Several times there have been glaringly obvious issues on their end (such as a maintenance window where notification was only given 'bout half a day in advance where they claimed there would be "no problems".  Guess what - our NY deployment knocked offline for an hour due to their butterfingers) where they not only tried to claim there wasn't a problem, but had the nerve to try and _blame us_ for their tech having a cockup.  Numerous other examples come to mind - having critical issues ignored in favour of "other clients", being charged for something we were supposed to already have included, etc.  It pretty much takes either Fran or I completely taking off the gloves to get anything at all out of these people.

The other issue is a punishing combination of arrogance and stupidity.  Inevitably, when dealing with any 'lifer' CC employee you're going to be treated like some illiterate hoodrat;  and that's on top of them acting as if they're god's gift to IT.  What really makes this frustrating is how completely _AMATEUR_ these people are.  It's like walking into a 5-star sit down for some steak and learning that the kid from McDonalds will be cooking your meal.

Case in point would be Alex, who anyone following WHT recently got to see played like a fiddle.  I mentioned earlier that there was an advantage to blatant lies - Alex is the best example after Fabozzi.  While some CC folks (Jon has gotten much better at this) will _carefully_ tread into an argument, and will actually be cautious with what they say so as not to create a liability later, Alex can reliably be expected to immediately claim the exact opposite when confronted with an uncomfortable truth.  So with a little patience, it's rather easy to coax information you want out of him by leading the conversation in a specific direction, and leaving coached placements for him to stumble on.

The reason I bring up WHT and the arrogance - you folks see how he acts on WHT.  The supreme "Holier than Thou", "Always right and you're always wrong" attitude.  This is _exactly_ what any customer dealing with ColoCrossing can expect... until you call them on the bluff.  As good ol' Jack recently discovered, threatening to leave netted him some rather fantastic pricing on gear.  Assuming ColoCrossing is even still around when our contract comes up (personally, I see them bankrupting out or having to trick some poor unsuspecting company into buying them out in order to avoid debt), I imagine we'll see the same.  Or, maybe we'll get lucky and be offered an early end to the contract - I hear Jon has been crying quite a bit lately about "Mean ol' Aldryic".


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## jarland

The feeling I get when I read your posts some times Aldryic, can only be defined as a man crush. Don't tell my wife.


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## Francisco

Everyone cries about "Mean ol' Aldryic" >_>

We had a brazilian guy come by IRC just tonight wanting to report you to the internet police.

While I always enjoy a cheap deal I just don't see us carrying through come our renewal. There's too much hostility (more so from us than them) to continue it smoothly.

While Jon won't like losing a cab, given the price he charges us I'm sure he'd have no problem selling it to someone else within 24 hours - just like EGI.

Francisco


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## jarland

Francisco said:


> Everyone cries about "Mean ol' Aldryic" >_>
> 
> 
> We had a brazilian guy come by IRC just tonight wanting to report you to the internet police.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-kwx3lWOdcU/TEmCGLC9hTI/AAAAAAAAAAc/FG6OVXLnyBM/s1600/officer-backtracer_cyber_police.jpg


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## Aldryic C'boas

Francisco said:


> just like EGI.


Hell boss, you just summarized my opinions of them in three words.  Coulda saved me a good bit of writing had you said that earlier >_>


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## Francisco

Aldryic C said:


> Hell boss, you just summarized my opinions of them in three words.  Coulda saved me a good bit of writing had you said that earlier >_>


CC is better than EGI since CC doesn't fuck us out of any resources we pay for.

Minus a few crap routes that they adjusted we've not had any network complaints. While I would love to have level3 again it's just not going to happen at the price bracket we pay for. Jon only listed we got a gbit unmetered port, he didn't list *what* providers as to not screw himself and give us room to walk.

Their support has been more or less fine with me. Alex gave me some wise ass replies and tried to pawn some network issues off on us but I'm not Fabozzi, I know how a BGP session works and how to check the running time of it. We're not the first person to have issues with Chuck but I can assure you that he'll never pickup another ticket of ours.

They have a few other techs that have done drive swaps for us and such and they've been on the ball as needed.

V6 still isn't there and won't be any time soon. Jon promised just this month that it will be up this year but I don't see that happening since he'll be too busy planning out another expansion. He made mention that 'no enterprise clients asked for it', but then what is every LE provider? If they aren't important then why whore yourself for a buck fiddy on the forums for near $0 margins?

My biggest frown in Jon's direction is that he changed the original designation for Buffalo. He originally said to me it was going to be a more premium location with mostly colo and would be fewer providers to compete with. Fast forward 2 months and you get what the market is over there now.

Francisco


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## Aldryic C'boas

Francisco said:


> V6 still isn't there and won't be any time soon. Jon promised just this month that it will be up this year but I don't see that happening since he'll be too busy planning out another expansion. He made mention that 'no enterprise clients asked for it', but then what is every LE provider? If they aren't important then why whore yourself for a buck fiddy on the forums for near $0 margins?
> 
> 
> My biggest frown in Jon's direction is that he changed the original designation for Buffalo. He originally said to me it was going to be a more premium location with mostly colo and would be fewer providers to compete with. Fast forward 2 months and you get what the market is over there now.
> 
> 
> Francisco


Mhmm, our grievances are aligned - the shameless dishonesty.  Pretty soon we'll need to change that `Fran Lied` meme to `Jon lied`.. although it's admittedly more frustrating than funny.


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## shovenose

So let me get this right? BuyVM is going to move out of ColoCrossing?


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## Francisco

shovenose said:


> So let me get this right? BuyVM is going to move out of ColoCrossing?


It's up to vote.

I already brought this up to Jon earlier in the month though.

Francisco


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## Aldryic C'boas

Take a few to read instead of asking for the tl;dr.  Having a half-assed understanding of a situation is where assumptions and (inevitably) annoying and time-consuming corrections originate.  Ever play that game where one person whispers a phrase to another, down the chain, and by the time it gets to the last bloke you've gone from "Tea on the patio" to "Anal with a porpoise"?  That's what happens when you don't take the time to understand what's happening.


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## jarland

Francisco said:


> It's up to vote.
> 
> 
> I already brought this up to Jon earlier in the month though.
> 
> 
> Francisco


Obviously I don't want to run around saying bad things about BuyVM, as great service as I've had all this time. I do, however, really want to see you in two US locations that don't involve CC. The network in Vegas is more than good enough, though my local run to it is a tad more than I'd like (I can't complain, East Texas to Vegas), but it's still great. Buffalo I just don't feel comfortable in even if I drop my feelings about who ran the power cable to the rack.


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## MannDude

Aldryic C said:


> Ever play that game where one person whispers a phrase to another, down the chain, and by the time it gets to the last bloke you've gone from "Tea on the patio" to "Anal with a porpoise"?


I laughed at your example of the game. I thought it was called, 'Chinese telephone' (or something), but I guess it's called, 'Chinese Whispers'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers Unsure why it's Chinese, but as a kid I remember doing that in Kindergarten or something. Maybe it was just me being a devious little cunt, but I'd change the 'whisper' drastically on purpose each time.


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## Aldryic C'boas

MannDude said:


> Maybe it was just me being a devious little cunt, but I'd change the 'whisper' drastically on purpose each time.


I always felt that was the underlying lesson of the game.  Not that repeating information would necessarily change it (if this were the case, society as a whole would've never made it to, let alone past, the middle ages) - but that in any situation of cooperation and trust, there will always be the one fellow that cocks it up intentionally to suit their own purposes (in this case, humour).  Never did know the name of it though;  I was the type of kid that intentionally avoided those situations due to either 1) having to work, or 2) already knowing the outcome, so Chinese Whispers works for me.


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## Francisco

jarland said:


> Obviously I don't want to run around saying bad things about BuyVM, as great service as I've had all this time. I do, however, really want to see you in two US locations that don't involve CC. The network in Vegas is more than good enough, though my local run to it is a tad more than I'd like (I can't complain, East Texas to Vegas), but it's still great. Buffalo I just don't feel comfortable in even if I drop my feelings about who ran the power cable to the rack.


You aren't the first alas. I have a lot of people on my case to get out of Buffalo since they refuse to use our east coast spots. They aren't making excuses either since they have mid/high priced services in LV and want to match the same on the east coast.

Francisco


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## shovenose

Francisco said:


> You aren't the first alas. I have a lot of people on my case to get out of Buffalo since they refuse to use our east coast spots. They aren't making excuses either since they have mid/high priced services in LV and want to match the same on the east coast.
> 
> 
> Francisco


Would love a non-CC east coast. Would probably get a BuyVM VPS for a ShoveHost shared hosting DNS server. Currently using DigitalOcean for that but while they've been solid they are not the most reliable feeling in the long-term.


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## Coastercraze

Francisco said:


> It's up to vote.
> 
> 
> I already brought this up to Jon earlier in the month though.
> 
> 
> Francisco


Well, at the very least find a good location not CC based. Maybe something in Virginia or New Jersey perhaps?


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## Francisco

Coastercraze said:


> Well, at the very least find a good location not CC based. Maybe something in Virginia or New Jersey perhaps?


I'd do direct Choopa.

The network looks nice and the pricing is solid.

Francisco


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## Enterprisevpssolutions

Great read and research. Sad to see the direction they are headed in. Almost like WHT they are not the same anymore last 5 - 6 years things started to change there too.


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## wlanboy

Let me add some words out of the perspective of a EU customer.

Looking back to the last three years I think I know why Buffalo was rising that fast.

In the EU there are a lot of premium datacenters. So for a  low end user all offers in the main countries were out of reach.

All vserver offers started at 10-20€ a month. So 13$ up to 26$ a month for something like 128 MB of RAM.

Even today they do not sell anything below 10€ a month.

Now you get 1 GB of RAM for it, but PRQ, Swedendedicated, NetRouting, OVH, HostEurope, Hetzner, 1&1, Server4you, etc. started to sell dedicated servers for about 2x of this amount too.

So noone wanted to buy vps - it was cheaper to buy a good VPN service and one dedicated box.

After a while some crappy NL datacenters started to lease dedicated servers and some quite good UK based datacenters too.

About the same time the big content firewalls were build and a lot of people were not able to watch BBC or listen to UK based radios. You needed a UK based ip. Same with Xbox, PS, or Wii marketplace.

So UK, NL and CH started to sell IPs with the characteristic to be able to get access to the content.

B.t.w. I can't believe that they closed the doors to customers that wanted to pay for the content...

Swiss became the land of the VPN, because noone wanted to host anything there.

UK and NL do have greate peerings to the northern countries. But two things happend quite at the same time:


The war of the UK providers.
And the crappy NL datacenters to become even worse.
Switching vps providers every two months was normal. After some time a lot of vps renters realized that:


Most content providers do accept US IPs too
The ping of the east cost to EU is quite good.
There are a lot of cheap US based providers.
NY was out of budget, Atlanta and Florida unknown and Carlifornia/Washington only fishing for Asia customers.

So everyone was buying Chicago and Buffalo based vps.

But times are changing again.

There are some UK based providers that seem to become solid enough.

And there a some NL based datacenters (the none crappy ones) that start to think that vps providers do not menace their dedicated server sells.

It might need 6 to 12 months but after that time the mood of the EU customers will change back to the state were they are able to host your stuff in the UK and NL without the fear of getting DDOSed and without the feeling of sitting on a dead horse.

And if you then need a US base vps - you want to buy it to reach a lot of US customers and not to have a good connection to the EU.


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## blergh

wlanboy said:


> ...
> Swiss became the land of the VPN, because noone wanted to host anything there.


wat.


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## wlanboy

blergh said:


> wat.


Northern countries...

If I need something in the south Germany or Italy are cheaper.


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## HalfEatenPie

wlanboy said:


> Northern countries...
> 
> If I need something in the south Germany or Italy are cheaper.


Erm.... Prometeus isn't cheap enough? iwStack?


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## wlanboy

HalfEatenPie said:


> Erm.... Prometeus isn't cheap enough? iwStack?


We are talking about Swiss.

If I need something in the south I would buy it in Italy or Germany and not in Switzerland.


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## HalfEatenPie

wlanboy said:


> We are talking about Swiss.
> 
> If I need something in the south I would buy it in Italy or Germany and not in Switzerland.


Oh yeah sorry about that! I guess I misread your comment!


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## peterw

wlanboy said:


> UK and NL do have greate peerings to the northern countries. But two things happend quite at the same time:
> 
> The war of the UK providers


I don't know why they attacked each other. They destroyed the image of UK hosting. I remeber all the buyouts, acquisitions, announced and not tranfered acquisitions of that time.


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## Francisco

They're still going on.

Didn't Burst sell their UK location?

Francisco


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## peterw

Francisco said:


> They're still going on.
> 
> 
> Didn't Burst sell their UK location?
> 
> 
> Francisco


You are right. They sold their left arm to UKFast: http://forums.burst.net/showthread.php?4908-Official-BurstNET-UK-UKFast-Statement

Statement on local newspapers:



> According to UKFast, the deal with BurstNET for an undisclosed sum will see an additional 1,500 customers transfer to it on top of the 4,500 it claims to deal with already.
> 
> "I don't want a business that is a one trick pony," he said.
> 
> Shawn Arcus, CEO at BurstNET said the deal came about when it approached UKFast about moving ten racks from data centre provider Telecity.


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## Francisco

I wasn't aware it happened until someone brought it up in the volumedrive thread.

Francisco


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## mpkossen

buffalooed said:


> F. Joel got a check and monthly payments thereafter from CC.


Any proof of this?

AFAIK, CC didn't take over officially (and I don't mean publicly) until a/some week(s) before the attacks happened.


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## drmike

mpkossen said:


> Any proof of this?
> 
> AFAIK, CC didn't take over officially (and I don't mean publicly) until a/some week(s) before the attacks happened.


I'll be direct on things.

Joel was owed money by CC.  That was said and spread by many people, some of which know Joel, supposedly.  He said, she said, no doubt about it.  If I ever get physical proof, you can bet you'll see it.

Now, the other word split contention about CC's official take over date, well that's problematic wording.

Lets be direct.  CC never admitted in public that it owned or controlled LEB/LET until after the May hacks.  The first CC person or affiliated party to admit such was Alex Vial.  At that point, there was no way CC could lie their way out of things and play the prove it game.    Even accomplishing that extraction required coxing.

To further that point Liam and other LET/LEB moderators knew nothing of the ownership, prior to the hack.  Among those folks include some who were receiving payments.  So either they are lying or CC is lying.  Either way, the community loses.

As far as when CC took over for real,  we can guess:

1. Prior to February 15, 2013:



> Nick_A Member
> February 15 (2013)
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how it fits in, but I'm curious as to why Alex Vial is listed as the one who handles LEB ads. Just plain curious.
> 
> 
> I run RamNode, your favorite SSD VPS provider!


2. In Q3 of 2012 when ads first appeared on one of the sites.  (one had ads and other didn't?)

3. February 2012, when the DDoS attacks hit and the sites migrated to CC.

If I follow the money, the BSA account, it was set up February of 2012.   At bet time, I'd place money on February 2012.   I'd also wager a guess that there will be some story that goes something like:

"LEB/LET/Joel/Santa Claus didn't have money.... we bailed them out.  In exchange for hosting their site, they agreed to let us run ads on the site(s)".


----------



## Reece-DM

peterw said:


> I don't know why they attacked each other. They destroyed the image of UK hosting. I remeber all the buyouts, acquisitions, announced and not tranfered acquisitions of that time.


Did anybody find out who the culprit was? My bet it would be one of those ones which managed to "Avoid" the attacks.


----------



## Francisco

Jon has personally said to me that Joel started trying to hock the site within weeks of getting ownership.

There was someone who was bidding against Jon (be it they were willing to pay more I don't know) but that in the end CC took ownership. The change of hands happened when CC got their ad on the front of the site. Soon after that they hit LET with a truck full of ads to (as Jon also put it) recoup the cost of the site.

Originally I was thinking Joel sold for $50k but the more Jon talks about the cost I'm starting to get the feeling it went for closer to $75k - $100k.

I also think that it was burstnet that was probably trying to buy the site as well.

Francisco


----------



## Aldryic C'boas

mpkossen said:


> Any proof of this?
> 
> AFAIK, CC didn't take over officially (and I don't mean publicly) until a/some week(s) before the attacks happened.


Not to be rude - but you even admitted "AFAIK" here.  You're pretty much relying on what you've been told by your employer, who already has a _STAGGERING_ track record for lies and deceit.



peterw said:


> I don't know why they attacked each other. They destroyed the image of UK hosting. I remeber all the buyouts, acquisitions, announced and not tranfered acquisitions of that time.





Reece said:


> Did anybody find out who the culprit was? My bet it would be one of those ones which managed to "Avoid" the attacks.


Well, when that whole mess first started, you had two very young UK kids running companies that were deeply involved with HackForums.  One got pissy at the other, a few booter strikes were launched - and it pretty much just escalated from there.


----------



## jarland

buffalooed said:


> To further that point Liam and other LET/LEB moderators knew nothing of the ownership, prior to the hack.


This is not entirely true. Liam had been collecting a paycheck from ColoCrossing for quite a bit before this all came out.



mpkossen said:


> AFAIK, CC didn't take over officially (and I don't mean publicly) until a/some week(s) before the attacks happened.


This would be false. ColoCrossing had taken over LEB quite a bit beforehand. For reference, just ask who Stephanie was. You'll never get an answer. That means the owners pushed someone through to write articles and that was simply that. They had also been paying Liam for a while before the hacks.


----------



## MannDude

Where is Joel, anyway?

I remember March of this year a LET moderator asking if we knew why payments for ads went to Alex at CC. This was months before everyone was informed of the ownership. The mods knew it.

In that same conversation it was mentioned that 'Joel pops in from time to time'. Doing what?


----------



## MannDude

jarland said:


> This would be false. ColoCrossing had taken over LEB quite a bit beforehand. For reference, just ask who Stephanie was. You'll never get an answer. That means the owners pushed someone through to write articles and that was simply that. They had also been paying Liam for a while before the hacks.


All I know is what I've been told, and that is 'Stephanie' was connecting to the helpdesk via a CC IP. For reference, when I worked for URPad we were waiting for our offer to be posted. Was supposed to go up at a certain time/day, but later was told it'd be 'tomorrow' (or something) as some other higher priority things came up... Ok, cool. Well, Miller and I were on vacation and were at the time in a casino in the Bahamas and he notices the offer was live on LEB from his phone. We grab a cab and head back to the hotel to do work. We get there, the posting is gone. It was just there. We're informed it was taken down by 'Stephanie' who left a note to 'not approve it until I say' (or something along those lines). Who the hell is 'she'? Well after hours and hours of 'her' not making changes to to the offer, someone else (Zahara, I believe) posted it for us.

Considering it appears she's only published VPSAce listings, and the details above, most likely a fake name operated by one of the CC people: https://www.google.com/#q=site%3Alowendbox.com+stephanie+Jourgen For those out of the loop, VPSAce is a company owned by 'Chris N.' from across the border from Buffalo, who also owns SSDVPS, ServerMania, Aim2Game, and vpncast. His companies have been featured 13 times on LEB this year since March.


----------



## drmike

Joel is kitesailing --- or running his related business. Or being ill as others claimed.

February Nick from RamNode found the Alex = BuySellAd payments recipient.  Moderators certainly got binged about that question in February. 

All the way up to the hack (May), they were curious about ownership.  All denied CC links.  If they knew and lied, then may hell shower upon their soiled souls.

_*'Joel pops in from time to time'*_

Joel didn't exist for eons.  Chief did.  Biloh and Vial were hopping in as Chief.  Such was said elsewhere and correlation to bans issued by Chief and later language from Jon  and Alex about lifting said bans.

The CC folks need a lesson in transparency and to stop thinking everyone is so stupid/gullible.


----------



## concerto49

Now that you mention it, where is Stephanie, Zahra and all the names that used to appear?


----------



## SeriesN

concerto49 said:


> Now that you mention it, where is Stephanie, Zahra and all the names that used to appear?


Zahra was an employee of Joel, so I guess she left with him? Stephanie? Rumor has it, it is one of KevDam's alias.


----------



## Francisco

Zahra was a staffer of Joel's, I remember that.

No one really knows where Joel is. Liam claims to still hear from him once in a blue moon but who knows. Last time I heard from him is when he called me before the Vegas move to wish me good luck with it. I got back home and never heard from him again.

We used to talk quite a bit, usually a few times a week but that all went to pot abrubtly in February. Liam claims he had a heart attack but I dunno about that. I know he was in the hospital quite a bit last year so there could be truth behind it.

Now, Jon claims this is all hogwash and that the guys healthy as an oxe and likely just very busy.

Francisco


----------



## jcaleb

The thing I notice. Many providers gets hard time to get listed in LEB. While others are posted so many times.


----------



## drmike

jcaleb said:


> The thing I notice. Many providers gets hard time to get listed in LEB. While others are posted so many times.


That's the premise, the root of the research and this post.

CC tries to defend their own customers being such a big percentage by saying:

1. Most offers are from CC network customers

2. Most offers in general aren't anything exceptional, more of the same and rejected by CC.

3. The percentage of CC based offers has increased since there are less offers posted.

All these are bad.  Folks said, in the past LEB was more heavily Burst.net or Wholesale on the offers.   While such likely is true, I am nearly certain one facility never represented 40%+ of the published offers in any month.

I've posted here and CC + moderators certainly are aware of that B2 Net / Serverhub / Aim2Game / 10 other brands:

http://vpsboard.com/topic/963-thread-for-buffalooed-to-investigate

They are somewhere over 10 offer posts on LEB this year.

Why CC allows that to happen clearly is for one reason. MONEY.

We expect LET/LEB to do the right thing? It is as unlikely as putting a pedophile in charge of the daycare yielding a positive outcome.


----------



## drmike

Month	Offers	% CC offers
(year 2013) 
January 35	14.28%
February 42	16.66%
March 45	20.00%
April 57	21.00%
May 36	33.00%
June 31	32.25%
July 26	34.61%
August 24	41.66%

September 2	50.00%


Anyone see a pattern?


----------



## AnthonySmith

Welcome to VPSBoard where everyone is determined to focus as much attention as possible on lowendbox.... haha this is getting silly guys, move on , sniff some grass etc etc.


----------



## MannDude

buffalooed said:


> Month	Offers	% CC offers
> (year 2013)
> January 35	14.28%
> February 42	16.66%
> March 45	20.00%
> April 57	21.00%
> May 36	33.00%
> June 31	32.25%
> July 26	34.61%
> August 24	41.66%
> 
> September 2	50.00%
> 
> 
> Anyone see a pattern?


Yes. Decreasing amount of offers posted, increasing number of Colocrossing offers.

When Alex Vial from Colocrossing said (source):



> and have lowered the actual volume of offers on LEB so people are better able to take advantage of what is there


I guess he wasn't lying about lowering the actual volume of offers. I think the 'people' he's referring to though is the CC gang. 

Business is business I s'pose.


----------



## MannDude

AnthonySmith said:


> Welcome to VPSBoard where everyone is determined to focus as must attention as possible on lowendbox.... haha this is getting silly guys, move on , sniff some grass etc etc.


We've got some great other discussions too!


----------



## serverhub

buffalooed said:


> That's the premise, the root of the research and this post.
> 
> CC tries to defend their own customers being such a big percentage by saying:
> 
> 1. Most offers are from CC network customers
> 
> 2. Most offers in general aren't anything exceptional, more of the same and rejected by CC.
> 
> 3. The percentage of CC based offers has increased since there are less offers posted.
> 
> All these are bad.  Folks said, in the past LEB was more heavily Burst.net or Wholesale on the offers.   While such likely is true, I am nearly certain one facility never represented 40%+ of the published offers in any month.
> 
> I've posted here and CC + moderators certainly are aware of that B2 Net / *Serverhub* / Aim2Game / 10 other brands:
> 
> http://vpsboard.com/topic/963-thread-for-buffalooed-to-investigate
> 
> They are somewhere over 10 offer posts on LEB this year.
> 
> Why CC allows that to happen clearly is for one reason. MONEY.
> 
> We expect LET/LEB to do the right thing? It is as unlikely as putting a pedophile in charge of the daycare yielding a positive outcome.


Hello,

We are in no way affiliated with with Colocrossing or B2Net. Feel free to visit our one of our major facilities in Phoenix or Dallas and we'll be glad to give you a tour of our office and facilities. We will be attending this years cPanel conference '13 (September 30 - October 2) in New Orleans as a major sponsor/exhibitor so if you're in the area I'll be glad to introduce you to our CEO .

http://conference13.cpanel.net/exhibit-sponsor/

Just to clarify, ServerHub is the child company of Eonix Corporation (Eonix.net) and Communications(IP & Transit Provider). We have a strong presence in PhoenixNap as one of their largest tenants & CoreXchange, with not only offering complete server solutions but also premium bandwidth blends & colocation services.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=532623546780791&set=pb.237830926260056.-2207520000.1378245974.&type=3&theater

http://www.phoenixnap.com/data-centers/carriers/

Thank you

ServerHub


----------



## drmike

I'll be with you in a bit @serverhub.


----------



## drmike

Sorry to do this to you @serverhub. If someone sprung this thread on you, well, shame on them.
 



> We are in no way affiliated with with Colocrossing or B2Net. Feel free to visit our one of our major facilities in Phoenix or Dallas and we'll be glad to give you a tour of our office and facilities.


*No affiliation with B2Net...*

Source: http://bgp.he.net/AS30693#_prefixes

There you will find 36 IP ranges owned by Eonix which are delegated to B2 Net.   Clearly,  you know who B2 Net is as they are fairly large "customer".  Kind of disproves the no affiliation with B2Net claim.

Rebuttal?


----------



## serverhub

buffalooed said:


> Sorry to do this to you @serverhub. If someone sprung this thread on you, well, shame on them.
> 
> *No affiliation with B2Net...*
> 
> Source: http://bgp.he.net/AS30693#_prefixes
> 
> There you will find 36 IP ranges owned by Eonix which are delegated to B2 Net.   Clearly,  you know who B2 Net is as they are fairly large "customer".  Kind of disproves the no affiliation with B2Net claim.
> 
> Rebuttal?


I was referring to our BRANDS and how you previously mentioned us as shell company of Colocrossing and B2Net You already proved that we host b2netsolutions (http://vpsboard.com/topic/963-thread-for-buffalooed-to-investigate/?view=findpost&p=25010)



> You can see here from their IPv4 peers that ServerHub / Eonix Corporation / Infinitie Networks / B2 Net Solutions Inc. are all listed as peers  One in the *same company *like I told you and related to earlier post revelations:
> 
> http://bgp.he.net/AS30693#_prefixes





> VPSAce, ServerHub, Aim2Game, etc. * Nope, would like to say their are CC owned*.  Certainly lots foul about the relationship and mass posting of their offers on LEB/LET.





> Please refer to the *VPS ACE / ServerHub / dozen other shell company example to see why they (CC)* need continued attention (i.e. non stop promotion on LEB of their offers while knowing who owns the companies / pulling sham):



I'm well aware of us hosting them and we don't hide it, we even have testimonials of them on our website.  http://serverhub.com/products/dedicated/phoenix-express-servers.php

I'm simply arguing that were aren't the same company.


----------



## drmike

Point #2: Your website: http://serverhub.com/corporate/contact-corporate.php

ServerHub®

52453 - 524 Queen Street W

Toronto, ON M5V 2B0 Canada

Their (B2 Net Solutions / Servermania) website: http://www.b2netsolutions.com/contactus.htm

Server Mania
52453 - 524 Queen Street W
Toronto, Ontario
M5V 2B0
Canada

Why are you both sharing an address and why are you sharing an address with an unffiliated "customer"?


----------



## drmike

Point #3: Your website: http://serverhub.com/corporate/corporate-profile.php

"ServerHub is headquartered in Henderson, Nevada"

ServerHub
2360 Corporate Circle Suite 400
Henderson, NV 89074

-----

2360 Corporate Circle Suite 400 is the address of http://www.incorp.com/incorporation-formation-registration.aspx

Incorp is a big incorporation firm and registered agent service.

Legally you are paper wise incorporated there.   As far as having a headquarters there, that you do not.


----------



## serverhub

buffalooed said:


> Point #2: Your website: http://serverhub.com/corporate/contact-corporate.php
> 
> ServerHub®
> 
> 52453 - 524 Queen Street W
> 
> Toronto, ON M5V 2B0 Canada
> 
> Their (B2 Net Solutions / Servermania) website: http://www.b2netsolutions.com/contactus.htm
> 
> Server Mania
> 
> 
> 52453 - 524 Queen Street W
> 
> 
> Toronto, Ontario
> 
> 
> M5V 2B0
> 
> 
> Canada
> 
> Why are you both sharing an address and why are you sharing an address with an unffiliated "customer"?





buffalooed said:


> Point #3: Your website: http://serverhub.com/corporate/corporate-profile.php
> 
> "ServerHub is headquartered in Henderson, Nevada"
> 
> ServerHub
> 
> 
> 2360 Corporate Circle Suite 400
> 
> 
> Henderson, NV 89074
> 
> -----
> 
> 2360 Corporate Circle Suite 400 is the address of http://www.incorp.com/incorporation-formation-registration.aspx
> 
> Incorp is a big incorporation firm and registered agent service.
> 
> Legally you are paper wise incorporated there.   As far as having a headquarters there, that you do not.


That was the PO Box address for our Canadian registered company, not sure why they ripped it from our site.

Our company was registered in Canada (2000),

Search "Eonix"

https://rjsc.gov.ns.ca/rjsc/acceptTerms.do?lang=en

And 2004 in the United States,

http://nvsos.gov/sosentitysearch/CorpDetails.aspx?lx8nvq=T6fuf4B%252fJWcdj6OgZ%252bW9CQ%253d%253d&nt7=0

While CC was registered in 2006 

http://appext20.dos.ny.gov/corp_public/CORPSEARCH.ENTITY_INFORMATION?p_nameid=3345784&p_corpid=3330827&p_entity_name=velocity%20servers&p_name_type=A&p_search_type=BEGINS&p_srch_results_page=0

Somehow the math doesn't add up. 

And yes we do have headquarters, 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f9dm7iz6wxar7ue/poo.JPG

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6n5u7evh3qs4ux1/photo%281%29.JPG

https://www.dropbox.com/s/28gdunjvi76l98o/photo.JPG

Thank you for your concerns


----------



## Francisco

> poo.jpg

Riskiest click of the day.

Francisco


----------



## Mr. Obvious

>no colocrossing here

haha


----------



## drmike

I will look over the documents here in a bit.

One thing I'll address is that never was there an intended inference that these companies are Colocrossing or that Colocrossing owns them or visa-versa.

The contention that B2Net and it's many "brands" are related to ServerHub, well that's the core issue.

Where Colocrossing ties in I'll show that later.


----------



## drmike

So, I quickly glanced things.  

It's funny, I think ServerHub / Eonix might actually be on the honest side of things.  

I give extra points for unveiling the NS corporate stuff.  

This is a hoot, the photo with the "NO COLOCROSSING HERE".



I think you two are trendsetters   Last week it was NO CC disclaimer on ads.  Now we have providers verifying their details and taking snapshots proclaiming their distance.


----------



## drmike

Back to the business side of things.

You are unsure why your customer B2Net used your "mailbox" service address?  This isn't the first time I've seen this in the industry.   B2Net seems a tad big though to be doing this.

_*"That was the PO Box address for our Canadian registered company"*_

I've noted that address is still used on your serverhub.com site.

My question is why do you use all these maildrop services as a legitimate company?  Nothing wrong with a mail forwarding service, but you have a few. 

Feel free to PM me where I can find your building with the corporate logo, not that I don't believe you.  Just eonix.net bears the Nevada incorporation company address.  Serverhub.com bears the Nevada incorporation company address and that mail drop in Toronto.  The whois info for both domains  shows Nevada incorporation company address.

I'm hoping everything for Eonix is on the straight and narrow really.  Your customer though,  beyond explaining to do, has other shady dealings and is what has you being tied to Colocrossing.


----------



## drmike

When I claim B2Net is "a tad big though", here's part of what substantiates that:

http://bgp.he.net/AS55286#_asinfo

Peers: 

1 ColoCrossing United States AS36352

IPs Originated (v4): 82,432


----------



## drmike

BTW: May 10th, 2012, is when b2netsolutions.com started using your Toronto mail drop address.

Again, that page:

http://www.b2netsolutions.com/contactus.htm

And the same page with the prior Younge address:

http://web.archive.org/web/20120418021444/http://www.b2netsolutions.com/contactus.htm


----------



## HalfEatenPie

serverhub said:


> https://www.dropbox.com/s/f9dm7iz6wxar7ue/poo.JPG
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/6n5u7evh3qs4ux1/photo%281%29.JPG
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/28gdunjvi76l98o/photo.JPG


You guys are fantastic.


----------



## serverhub

buffalooed


I can't speak for why B2Net is using our mail forward drop. I can tell you why I originally used it. It dates back to 2003 when I was living in Toronto at the time. I lived 2 blocks away and decided to use it there and have everything come to that forward. This was before the US corporation and before ServerHub.com as we know it. Since we maintain a Canadian corporation, we have maintained that address as we would much rather use that, then the address listed in Nova Scotia. If you notice, we have been in the field since 2000.


Longer then both these businesses.


Look at our ASN we have different providers, different everything. Yes, B2Net has IP space with us because they maintain a presence in our AZ facility which was before they went with colo crossing. Our swips to B2Net is the requirement we have to report the usage in the ARIN Whois database.


Our arizona field office holds the majority of our staff. Which is where that pic was taken. Notice the deserty non grass dull background


As a company that has been around for quite some time and someone who takes pride in our brand I am publicly extending an offer for you. If you are here in the US which I believe you are. I will personally fly you out to Arizona to tour or az datacenter and meet with our staff. We love our brand and the services we offer and would love to share our culture with you. You can see first hand our operations and this will without a doubt ease your mind on your concerns of b2net / cc.


----------



## drmike

@serverhub, mostly I point out the obvious and the public details.

I give you a big hand clap for addressing the confusion in both a direct and sufficient manner.

The mail drop, yes, strange arrangement your Canadien Post has with PO boxes in such stores.  Your, incorporation in Nova Scotia is clean and clear.  Right on point.

My only slight issue with the Toronto maldrop is proximity to B2 Net's former address at Younge.  It's quite too close for comfort < 2 miles. See: http://binged.it/1dNSq50.  I'd like to see them revise their mailing info since you've indicated a problem with that.  Seems very, umm dishonest on their part.  Suspect in the time they've used the drop, should have had mail come to you with their company name on it.

The IP SWIPs make sense. Someone more versed in that can speak on it if I am missing something obvious.  I admit I am a bit confused with B2 Net's IP issuance and use across both companies/datacenters.

I appreciate your gracious offer.  I'll look to do something better  if everything rings true and clear on this, on my own dime.

If you might, ask Kevin over at B2 Net to stop by here and clear up any issues with his company and flesh out the raised concerns.

Again, the issue is hinged on B2 Net and the PO Box address mainly, and his proximity of address prior.


----------



## MartinD

This has to be one of the best photographs I've ever seen on any webhosting related forum as well as the best 'fingers to CC/CVPS' post in a long time.

Epic and much deserved kudos to ServerHub.


----------



## tallship

buffalooed said:


> I just performed that task and here are the results showing the downward decline of Lowendtalk offers.
> 
> Key things to note:
> 
> 1. The big hacks of Lowendtalk occurred around May 15.  That resulted in this community coming into public view and many Colocrossing critics abandoning LET and LEB.
> 
> 2. A company is affiliated where a company has existing services with CC, even though offer may not be at a CC location.
> 
> *Summary findings:*
> 
> 1. Total offers on LEB has decreased every month for 5 months.
> 
> 2. % of offers that are CC related has increased every month except one.
> 
> 3. % of offers that are CC has ballooned from 21% in April to over 41% in August
> 
> 4. Offers that ran as last offer for multiple days increased every month for past 5 months.
> 
> 5. Offers that ran as last for multiple days that were CC increased for a low of 25% to a high of 54% in August.



Thank you very much for all the work that went into that effort


----------



## serverhub

@buffalooed. Thanks for the praise, I am rather interested as well in the fact they have the mail forwarder for our Canadian correspondence as well. We have it set up as a forwarder for that location. Multiple companies do use that example: http://virgingaming.com/tournaments/espnfc/rules.html Virgin Gaming also uses them as well, as per a search I found.

Our SWIPs on IP space to B2NET are done in accordance with: https://www.arin.net/resources/request/reassignments.html
 

Any reassignment of IP space from our customers are required to have a completed SWIP. 

We would definitely love to host you here at our offices and show you around our facilities, so if you do decide to come on by, let me know and we will make all the arrangements.


----------



## drmike

Tee hee! Virgin Gaming just loves that PO Box setup there 

Does the post provide mail acceptance and forwarding to customers? Foreign arrange with the drug store locations.

Thanks for the info


----------



## serverhub

@buffalooed

How we did it was we pay the business international forwarding fee on an annual bases with Canada Post, similar to the US based USPS moving form. It works out really efficiently. My reason with going with Toronto was because I lived right off Queen Street and it was the closest place for me at the time. If you look when we were all Canada based and I lived in Vancouver for a short period of time, the box was in Vancouver BC. But when I expatriated to the United States and since forwarding was still in place for Toronto > Vancouver. I gave up the PO BOX in Vancouver and changed forwarding to International via Toronto.

But yeah with Canada Post anyone can do mail forwarding as long as they pay the $$$$ to Canada Post =)

and now you know my backstory. Brings me back to my early days =)


----------



## jarland

serverhub said:


> And yes we do have headquarters,
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/f9dm7iz6wxar7ue/poo.JPG


Yeah umm...will be a customer next week because of that


----------



## MartinD




----------

