# What are features you as a client want to see



## SkylarM (Jun 10, 2013)

I'm interested in seeing what the community wants to see as an additional value-added service to their VPS. Things like DNS and off-loaded SQL are becoming more and more standard (less so with SQL, but it's popping up more frequently now than in the past). What is a feature you wish more providers offered, or cannot find anywhere on the market right now?

What draws your attention to a provider in this case? Things like KVM vs OpenVZ, the panel they use, IPv6 support, SSD-Cache/SSD VPS,  so on.


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## tdc-adm (Jun 10, 2013)

I like DNS and off-loaded SQL


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## bbb (Jun 10, 2013)

Proper spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc. on the site. No fucking typos. *No fucking typos.*

Make sure your site displays properly in all browsers. As much as I love Patrick, this pisses me off.
KVM is brilliant, and better than OpenVZ, but make sure that we can install the OS manually over VNC. We like that. Make sure you mention on the site that we can do it.
Let us send you links to ISOs so you can make them available to us in SolusVM.
Use SolusVM/WHMCS/whatever else is popular. We're used to it. I actually get kind of annoyed when people write their own because it's seldom as good as the aforementioned alternatives.
Make sure all of the links on your site work. It's not hard. Check your logs for 404s or whatever.
Make sure you have the latest OSs available nice and quick. Some hosts still don't have Debian 7 templates and it's fucking annoying.
Also make sure you have minimal templates if you're going to use them.
That neat 'Configure Network' button some hosts have in SolusVM is great.
Consider rewarding people with a temporary discount or something else if they help you out by reporting bugs, etc. It's annoying typing up a big message after discovering some obscure error just to get a 'lol thx', even if we don't really deserve it (an extra 10% off next month's bill is enough to let us know you appreciate it).
For the love of god, spell your company's name the same way on all pages. Not _FlipHost_ on one and _Fliphost.net_ on another.
English AUP and ToS. No Google translate. Pay to get it professionally translated or do it yourself. Make sure it makes sense.
Make it *very, very clear* if IRC/VPN/BitTorrent/game servers are/aren't allowed in the AUP.
Consider having a 'quick AUP' that's, like, a really simple fucking table or 'simple English' version. Make sure that the client knows it's just a quickie and not a substitute for the actual AUP, but that it gives you a brief overview of what is/isn't allowed. This is a good idea and I think Secure Dragon (or is it _SecureDragon_?) did it once and I liked it.
No WhoisGuard, no all-name-servers-on-the-same-IP.
Don't try and beguile me with bullshit buzzwords.
*Use a custom template. Don't use the same template as every other summer host (I'm looking at you again, FlipHost).*
Use IRC. Even though everyone just seems to piss about in #lowendbox and #vpsboard, I feel much more comfortable knowing that PatrickINIZ, ispirto, WilliamDotSI, etc. are real people that can be fun to talk to. It's also nice knowing I can /query them if I have a really quick question not worthy of a ticket.
Have an IRC channel. Bonus points if it's _not_ on your own network (just use freenode).
Actually listen to feedback.
*Actually listen to feedback and keep to your word.* I reported a problem with netelligent's AUP about a year ago and some woman on the support team assured me it would be fixed (and confirmed that it was an actual problem, not just me being an idiot). It never was (they terminate you for hosting IRC servers but don't mention it anywhere). Another example is VPSCorner saying they'd fix the WHOIS issue with their domain -- they never did.
If it's possible, offer payments in multiple currencies. Not sure about this one but it's nice.
None of that flying-right-in-your-face support 'come chat with us' shit that BalticServers has where it actually connects you to the chat whether you want to or not.
It's 'DDoS', not 'DDOS'.
I don't know about DNS hosting but it would be nice.
If you offer domain registration, make sure we feel safe knowing you won't fuck off and lose our domains when your summer host inevitably fails.
No Pony shit (MLP or not). Francisco does it and it's bloody annoying, and one of the offers on this forum has it, too.
Actually, no cartoon characters or famous people, full stop. It's dumb.
Transparency. No Linode nonsense.
Make sure there are no random rDNS records for IPs you hand out. With VPSCorner I once ended up with an IPv4 address with an rDNS record for some kind of SMTP service, and the IPv6 address had something else dumb, too.
Try not to end up on Hack Forums.
Have a Twitter. Status updates are great.
Prizes and competitions aren't necessary but are a fun way to attract attention to yourselves and make sure that people look at you twice. I think it's nice that LoveVPS is doing one. It's just a yearly KVM -- won't cost them much -- but it still makes them look good.
This list isn't so much about features as it is about common mistakes. Probably got more to say but I'm lazy as fug.

*Edit:* Regarding the WHMCS bit, kro[au]'s panel/billing system is great. I helped test it and he *actually listened to feedback*. Take note!


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## Awmusic12635 (Jun 10, 2013)

bbb said:


> For the love of god, spell your company's name the same way on all pages. Not _FlipHost_ on one and _Fliphost.net_ on another.
> 
> *Use a custom template. Don't use the same template as every other summer host (I'm looking at you again, FlipHost).*


I Intend to get one made for sure.

While most of my funds have been going back into adding new features and locations etc, I do understand that my website is the first image the customer will have of Fliphost and I indend to make sure it is a good one in the coming months.


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## SkylarM (Jun 10, 2013)

bbb said:


> This list isn't so much about features as it is about common mistakes. Probably got more to say but I'm lazy as fug.


You're lazy, yet wrote that. Love it  Good points especially the IRC. I've been debating about throwing together an IRC channel that I can provide support in, I just don't want it to be a wasteland of emptyness so haven't done it quite yet.

I like the comment about Transparency. I've always felt honesty is important. It's always amusing seeing a provider selling a 1GB ram service for $3/m and then stating clear as day that they don't oversell at all. Honesty goes a long way when I look for a provider.

@Fliphost I noticed in your client area that the "More" button on the announcement doesn't seem to work using Firefox. Haven't bothered looking in another browser though, the font hurts my eyes ;(


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## bbb (Jun 10, 2013)

If you don't allow certain things in certain locations, let us know. Make it very, very clear. I'm sure that EDIS prohibits IRC servers in certain locations, but I can't find where it's mentioned on the site.
Actually look at your site. I'm not a designer, nor am I a critic, but even I could tell you that having a Smurf picture and then a little girl on your homepage is a stupid idea (fucking LetBox -- at least they've fixed it now).
*I can't stress enough how frustrated I get when I can't figure out if you, as a provider, are or aren't okay with something in less than two minutes of opening your site. I should be able to click 'Acceptable Use Policy' at the bottom of the page, read through it, and come away with a good understanding of what's tolerated.*

No drama, no shenanigans (see: CC). I doubt anyone that's active in the community will ever trust these guys again because of the nonsense they've pulled.
_NinjaHawk_, _NerdyVPS, LoliHosting, _etc. are not a good company names. Especially that last one (although it's probably more acceptable in Asia). I'm sorry. Make sure your company name isn't awful. There are professional services out there that don't cost very much. They can help you rebrand. If you're not sure if your name/site/etc. is awful, *ask someone*. If I saw a host with a crap site asking for feedback on vpsBoard I'd be grateful because it means that they care about our opinion. This is another example of when it's a good idea to take feedback on board.
Obscure-but-not-quite-so-obscure locations such as Romania, Moldova, Estonia are a lot of fun. Not a dealbreaker by any means, but I really do like it when I see hosts with nodes in strange places. EDIS, GetKVM, etc. are great examples (especially EDIS).
A proper knowledge base is great. RamNode is very good at this. They have guides to optimising your VPS and configuring networking manually. I like this a lot.
*Contacting support for rDNS changes is a pain in the ass.*
*Don't make us ask permission to do something like use IRC. That's just dumb (see: CastleGem).*
Regarding feedback, respond to mentions on forums and such. You see that Fliphost made a post regarding my comments above, and that's what I like to see. 
If you're an OVZ provider, consider offering yearly <= 256 MB plans.
Custom plans are a really, really, really good idea. I love it when I can shave off some memory for a few extra GBs of drive space. It's even better if you let us do it with some fancy sliders on the order form. I'm not talking about extra memory, I'm talking about if I want something with lots of drive space and not much else, I could get it. Even if I have to e-mail you, it's still great.
Make it clear what vSwap/etc. is on the site. Maybe have a mouse-over pop-up for most of the terminology. Once again, no buzzwords.
It's nice to HTTPS on _every_ page of the site, even the home page, although it's not necessary. No self-signed, ever.
Use the same terminology on each page. Don't call it _Swap_ on one and _vSwap_ on another if you're talking about the exact same thing.
I'm enjoying this!

*Edit:* IPv6. Who the heck doesn't have IPv6 these days? State if it's not native.


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## Awmusic12635 (Jun 10, 2013)

SkylarM said:


> @Fliphost I noticed in your client area that the "More" button on the announcement doesn't seem to work using Firefox. Haven't bothered looking in another browser though, the font hurts my eyes ;(


Are you referring to the annoucements in whmcs?



bbb said:


> Regarding feedback, respond to mentions on forums and such. You see that Fliphost made a post regarding my comments above, and that's what I like to see.


I try to stay active 

You are certainly coming up with a lot of good and interesting ideas. Some I haven't thought of and will put on my list to work on.

Thanks


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## SkylarM (Jun 10, 2013)

Fliphost said:


> Are you referring to the annoucements in whmcs?


Yessir.

On a related note, IPv6 support for customers is coming this week or next.


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## staticsafe (Jun 10, 2013)

Full IPv6 support, by this I mean:


Native IPv6, no tunnel bullshit that some providers do. Seriously, providing HE tunnels to paying customers is not cool.
Give me a /64 (I realize this isn't possible with SolusVM...)
Let me set the PTR(s) or let me delegate the PTR zone to my own nameservers
Don't treat IPv6 as a second class citizen, a problem with IPv6 *is* a problem with your network.


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## Awmusic12635 (Jun 10, 2013)

SkylarM said:


> Yessir.


Alright I see the issue now. Must have happened one day I was editing some of the template files.

I belive it is just a missing tag.

Thanks I will that right up.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Jun 10, 2013)

bbb said:


> [*]No Pony shit (MLP or not). Francisco does it and it's bloody annoying, and one of the offers on this forum has it, too.
> 
> 
> Sorry to hear you don't like our antics  Love your list though - adding this to my notebook for future reference.


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## SkylarM (Jun 10, 2013)

Decided to make a change to our TOS, something I've been considering for a while:



> Usage and Overages
> 
> Crissic Solutions, LLC does not charge for bandwidth overages. If a client goes over their allocated bandwidth, the service will be port limited until the beginning of the next pay period at a rate of 10Mbps. Customers may contact sales to purchase additional bandwidth at the rate of $2.50/TB as a monthly addon or at a one time fee for the current pay period.


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## bbb (Jun 10, 2013)




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## bbb (Jun 10, 2013)

SkylarM said:


> Decided to make a change to our TOS, something I've been considering for a while:


See? That's good. It's simple and makes sense, and now nobody will ever be confused about what happens if they go over their allocated limits. This is how it should always be!


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## SeriesN (Jun 10, 2013)

bbb said:


> NinjaHawk, NerdyVPS, LoliHosting, etc. are not a good company names. Especially that last one (although it's probably more acceptable in Asia). I'm sorry. Make sure your company name isn't awful. There are professional services out there that don't cost very much. They can help you rebrand. If you're not sure if your name/site/etc. is awful, ask someone. If I saw a host with a crap site asking for feedback on vpsBoard I'd be grateful because it means that they care about our opinion. This is another example of when it's a good idea to take feedback on board.


bbb, I beg to differ. How is Ninja Hawk not a good name? I have asked you the same on your other post and you have ignored it.



bbb said:


> No Pony shit (MLP or not). Francisco does it and it's bloody annoying, and one of the offers on this forum has it, too.


If you fail to see the humor and want to constantly attack our business and business ethics without being a customer, I have no words for you. It is just sad. That is all I am going to say.


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## SkylarM (Jun 10, 2013)

SeriesN said:


> bbb, I beg to differ. How is Ninja Hawk not a good name? I have asked you the same on your other post and you have ignored it.
> 
> 
> If you fail to see the humor and want to constantly attack our business and business ethics without being a customer, I have no words for you. It is just sad. That is all I am going to say.


Yeah NinjaHawk is a pretty bad name. Personally I feel like PinkPrincessWarriors would be a better name.

Kidding of course. NinjaHawk is better than the companies that put vm, vps, etc in their name. Not a huge fan of that. Some can pull it off, but it just feels so _unoriginal_


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## bbb (Jun 10, 2013)

SeriesN said:


> bbb, I beg to differ. How is Ninja Hawk not a good name? I have asked you the same on your other post and you have ignored it.


It comes off as childish. This is my opinion and you're entitled to disagree with me. I assumed you were a child like Robert Clarke at first, simply because of the name. I've seen worse (the last example), but I still think it's better suited for an Xbox Live clan or something rather than a company I'd trust with my data.

I'm not overly fond of people using word like _panther_ or _dragon_ in a company name. _Secure Dragon_ does it, but I think they pull it off quite well.

Your logo looks like it belongs on a cereal box.

BigScoots is another crappy one I've just thought of, although it is pretty hilarious.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Jun 10, 2013)

&nbsp;



bbb said:


> It just seems incredibly unprofessional. I'm not fond of your Cartmanland-esque 'we're always out of stock' stuff, either. Also, your ToS pretty bad.
> 
> 
> &nbsp;
> ...


&nbsp;

Well, we know it's not for everyone, but we do prefer to be a host that people can easily relate with. Jarland put it best.. I don't remember his exact quote, but it was along the lines of wanting to talk to a provider on a first name basis and know you could relax with them, rather than just 'talking to a suit and tie'.


Well, the 'out of stock' is done out of necessity. Either we know that orders would have to wait unreasonably long to be setup (holidays/etc), or the stock legitimately isn't there. We absolutely refuse to overprovision the nodes.. so when something's sold out, it's sold out. We're not gonna cram 80 2Gs on a node just to make a buck 


What do you find unappealing about the TOS?


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## Francisco (Jun 10, 2013)

Ours isn't bro'ny crap

Ours is FMP good sir!

Fran


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## bbb (Jun 10, 2013)




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## SeriesN (Jun 10, 2013)

bbb said:


> It comes off as childish. This is my opinion and you're entitled to disagree with me. I assumed you were a child like Robert Clarke at first, simply because of the name. I've seen worse (the last example), but I still think it's better suited for an Xbox Live clan or something rather than a company I'd trust with my data.
> 
> I'm not overly fond of people using word like _panther_ or _dragon_ in a company name. _Secure Dragon_ does it, but I think they pull it off quite well.


Applying that logic, Hostgator is also a bad name just as well as hawk host and so on. Well, Okay then. My current clients love it and I like to think they are all mature and professional.


> Your logo looks like it belongs on a cereal box.


Everyone loves cerial.


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## bbb (Jun 10, 2013)

SeriesN said:


> Applying that logic, Hostgator is also a bad name just as well as hawk host and so on. Well, Okay then. My current clients love it and I like to think they are all mature and professional.
> 
> 
> Everyone loves cerial.


Hostgator isn't great, but it could be worse.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Jun 10, 2013)

bbb said:


> The ToS: Aside from the mis-capitalisations in the AUP, it's mostly fine. I'm not fond of _3,1,4_ or _5,4,2,1_, although they're both understandable.


Heh, both have solid reasons for being there. Too many people will either stop paying, or be terminated for abuse, and simply try to open a new account to avoid their history. I also see a good deal of people "opening an account for a friend", and there has never been a good justification as to why that would be necessary.


Now, obviously some folks might represent a company, and might want their company to have an account with us separate of their personal stuff. Perfectly reasonable, and we do allow 'business' accounts - they just have to be approved beforehand (typically, the user would get with me, I'll list out the info we need, and get the account created, whitelisted, and ready to go for them).


Rejecting unverified PayPal payments was a bit of a tough decision. We realize how many people dislike giving PayPal their bank/CC/etc.. but at the end of the day, unverified PayPal payments comprised less than 7% of our clients; while conversely, well over 95% of our abusive clients were using unverified PayPal accounts. That policy helped a great deal in thinning out abusers and payment risks (the folks that tried disputes/etc, and then tried opening new accounts anyways).


The PONY thing is an old joke originating from the FMP series. tl;dr - it basically turned into a company meme, fueled in no small part by our own community and IRC. While we do have some various equus-named items (the Stallion panel, etc), it's worth noting that the Pony antics only take place in community settings. We're not sending out Pony-themed invoices to folks 


The stock thing was a bit of a phenomenon, to be honest. We had another brand before BuyVM (and technically, Frantech is still the 'parent' company), so we had a good bit of experience with what was needed for providing quality service. When BuyVM rolled out officially, we were offering specs, prices, and addons that nobody else had at the time - between that, and our own community participation and dedication to quality, made us unreasonably popular, to the point that we could deploy a full new rack of hardware, average hundreds of sales within half an hour of opening stock, and completely sell out the hardware within days. It became severe enough that people ended up staying up unreasonably late/early just to try and snag a VM, so we implemented stock control (releasing X quantities at specified times throughout the day) to try and help out folks in other timezones. It was honestly at the point where we would be completely sold out for months at a time, and we'd be so busy with support/tuning/etc that we simply wouldn't have time to even plan out hardware expansions.


So aye - it's "worked well" for us, and we're very happy that people enjoy the service.. but I can honestly say that none of us expected or planned for things to play out that way.


I must say though, it is very nice to see such open/unabashed criticism, especially constructive criticism. A simple listing of faults, WHY they're considered faults, all without personal attacks or any real bias other than just calling things as you see it. I tip my hat to you sir, the community (and market) needs much more of that type of open-eye critique.


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## D. Strout (Jun 10, 2013)

Somehow this has changed from "features you'd like" to "how to create and maintain a good company image". So to get back to the original point, let me say that I would like to see more providers giving the option of handing out a IPv6 /64*. What's that, SolusVM doesn't support it? Well then get on their case and _make_ them support it. Or do it like Prometeus does it - hand it out separately from SolusVM.

*Yes, I am assuming you support IPv6, _like all providers should_. If you are on a cheap-o network that has decided that they will never support IPv6, _leave_. You know who I'm talking about.


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## bbb (Jun 10, 2013)

D. Strout said:


> Somehow this has changed from "features you'd like" to "how to create and maintain a good company image". So to get back to the original point, let me say that I would like to see more providers giving the option of handing out a IPv6 /64*. What's that, SolusVM doesn't support it? Well then get on their case and _make_ them support it. Or do it like Prometeus does it - hand it out separately from SolusVM.
> 
> *Yes, I am assuming you support IPv6, _like all providers should_. If you are on a cheap-o network that has decided that they will never support IPv6, _leave_. You know who I'm talking about.


Agreed about Prometeus's methods. They should probably add a little tutorial to manual network configuration if that's how they're going to keep it, though.


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## SeriesN (Jun 10, 2013)

Besides the issue with my name, everything else sounds really useful and gives me an extra room for thinking. Printed and posted next to my workstation.



bbb said:


> Proper spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc. on the site. No fucking typos. *No fucking typos.*
> Make sure your site displays properly in all browsers. As much as I love Patrick, this pisses me off.
> KVM is brilliant, and better than OpenVZ, but make sure that we can install the OS manually over VNC. We like that. Make sure you mention on the site that we can do it.
> Let us send you links to ISOs so you can make them available to us in SolusVM.
> ...


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## SeriesN (Jun 10, 2013)

bbb said:


> Hostgator isn't great, but it could be worse.


Damn it man! I wish I had the money to start a cerial company now!


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## Francisco (Jun 10, 2013)

D. Strout said:


> Somehow this has changed from "features you'd like" to "how to create and maintain a good company image". So to get back to the original point, let me say that I would like to see more providers giving the option of handing out a IPv6 /64*. What's that, SolusVM doesn't support it? Well then get on their case and _make_ them support it. Or do it like Prometeus does it - hand it out separately from SolusVM.
> 
> *Yes, I am assuming you support IPv6, _like all providers should_. If you are on a cheap-o network that has decided that they will never support IPv6, _leave_. You know who I'm talking about.


I think it comes down to Solus will have a pain in the butt of a time getting that in place due their client base. Are /48's handed out that much by providers? I assumed most providers were just doing a /64 each and if you have a ton of boxes they MIGHT break you off a piece of that kitkat bar allocate you a /48. I'm fairly sure I heard that WSI/Datashack will allocate you a /48 to a rack or something but not per node.

Francisco


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## staticsafe (Jun 10, 2013)

Francisco said:


> I think it comes down to Solus will have a pain in the butt of a time getting that in place due their client base. Are /48's handed out that much by providers? I assumed most providers were just doing a /64 each and if you have a ton of boxes they MIGHT break you off a piece of that kitkat bar allocate you a /48. I'm fairly sure I heard that WSI/Datashack will allocate you a /48 to a rack or something but not per node.
> 
> 
> Francisco


Linode will give you up to a /56 on request, I really doubt any VPS provider is giving anything higher than that.


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## Francisco (Jun 10, 2013)

staticsafe said:


> Linode will give you up to a /56 on request, I really doubt any VPS provider is giving anything higher than that.


Wow!

But it's still bound to a single location which is what Solus would have an issue with. I'm not saying it would be impossible for them to support it, it's likely just a pain in a butt feature that a very very small part of their client base can make use of.

Francisco

Francisco


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## D. Strout (Jun 10, 2013)

OK, well if a /64 is unreasonable, I at least wish SolusVM didn't hand out completely _random_ IPv6 addresses. Why not consecutive, or in the same /112? Oh wait, now I'm changing the subject again. Let's put it this way then: is there any way for providers to hand out IPv6 addresses like that instead of randomly?


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## Aldryic C'boas (Jun 10, 2013)

D. Strout said:


> OK, well if a /64 is unreasonable, I at least wish SolusVM didn't hand out completely&nbsp;_random_ IPv6 addresses. Why not consecutive, or in the same /112? Oh wait, now I'm changing the subject again. Let's put it this way then: is there any way for providers to hand out IPv6 addresses like that instead of randomly?


What I ended up doing for quite some time until Fran finished writing Stallion1 was simply using bash/sql scripts. On create, it would pick 16 consecutive aviailable v6 addresses, assign to the VM via vzctl (to ensure the confs were updated), and correct the SQL records. KVM was more or less the same, just minus the node-side. It's a bit of a pain, aye, but it got the job done until we finally just said 'f this', and wrote Stallion1.


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## D. Strout (Jun 10, 2013)




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## Francisco (Jun 10, 2013)

D. Strout said:


> Sounds like a good idea, though TBH I'm not a fan of your (BuyVM's) IPv6 allocations - the address are _way too long_. I know you have thousands of VMs, but I also know you have enough addresses that they shouldn't all have to lack a double colon.


Back on topic  We've already covered the v6 stuff in the stallion 2 thread.

Allocating /112's might be a way to do it, but it may become a pain in the ass with all those gateways D: Unless they did 'soft' subnets..???

Francisco


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## D. Strout (Jun 10, 2013)

Back on topic indeed. Offloaded MySQL and DNS are nice, but I've never had a use for them personally. It does show that a provider is forward thinking. I also like free backup space, that will generally be useful for anyone.


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## bbb (Jun 10, 2013)

Maybe I should take all of the edgy swearing out and compile a proper list. Perhaps on a wiki (don't we have like 30 VPS wikis?). We could make an article about the dos and don'ts from the client's perspective.


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## D. Strout (Jun 10, 2013)

bbb said:


> Use SolusVM/WHMCS/whatever else is popular. We're used to it. I actually get kind of annoyed when people write their own because it's seldom as good as the aforementioned alternatives.


 

Generally I agree, especially from a design perspective (terribly designed panels like VirtPanel). I have seen several providers that do it/are doing it right though. If you have the resources to make a truly _good_ panel with all the features that other people are asking for, by all means go for it (yes, I'm talking mostly about BuyVM).


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## shovenose (Jun 10, 2013)

bbb said:


> _NinjaHawk_, _NerdyVPS, LoliHosting, _etc. are not a good company names. Especially that last one (although it's probably more acceptable in Asia). I'm sorry. Make sure your company name isn't awful. There are professional services out there that don't cost very much. They can help you rebrand. If you're not sure if your name/site/etc. is awful, *ask someone*. If I saw a host with a crap site asking for feedback on vpsBoard I'd be grateful because it means that they care about our opinion. This is another example of when it's a good idea to take feedback on board.
> 
> *Edit:* IPv6. Who the heck doesn't have IPv6 these days? State if it's not native.


What do you think of ShoveHost? I already think I know what the answer to that one is. How about the BetterVPS one?


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## bbb (Jun 10, 2013)

shovenose said:


> What do you think of ShoveHost? I already think I know what the answer to that one is. How about the BetterVPS one?


Is there some kind of deeper meaning to the name that I'm not aware of? If not, I'm not particularly fond of it. _BetterVPS_ is actually pretty good. With a catchy slogan it could work quite well, IMO. Not sure about the use of tildes on both of your sites, though.


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## shovenose (Jun 10, 2013)

bbb said:


> Is there some kind of deeper meaning to the name that I'm not aware of? If not, I'm not particularly fond of it. _BetterVPS_ is actually pretty good. With a catchy slogan it could work quite well, IMO. Not sure about the use of tildes on both of your sites, though.


Not really the only reason shovehost is called shovehost is because I'm shovenose and I run shovehost. Lol.


You think - or :: or | is better than ~ ?


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## crazywsl (Jun 10, 2013)

SkylarM said:


> and off-loaded SQL


++



bbb said:


> I'm sure that EDIS prohibits IRC servers in certain locations, but I can't find where it's mentioned on the site.


Yep, that got lost somehow on their website update. About a year ago that information was right there on the country specific vps-page, iirc. And afaik IRC servers are only allowed in austria. William mentioned it somewhere on LEB.


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## bbb (Jun 10, 2013)

shovenose said:


> Not really the only reason shovehost is called shovehost is because I'm shovenose and I run shovehost. Lol.
> 
> 
> You think - or :: or | is better than ~ ?


Typically, '|' or '


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## drmike (Jun 10, 2013)

What I am looking for when shopping:


1. Clear "everyday" pricing. Coupons are nice, but having 50 of them that never expire and everyone buying on a coupon is dishonest and bad direction.


2. Clear ToS. The ToS should be mandatory click and initial document prior to payment gateway. The ToS should have clear no BS lines on ToR, file sharing, libel, slander, IRC, etc.


example: We PROHIBIT ToR on our servers. We allow IRC, but PROHIBIT IRC servers.


3. Privacy Policy - Very few providers have much to say officially about privacy and what they care about related to privacy. Would be nice to see disclosure of who has access to info of the customer, only disclosure reasons they have for such and how/when a customer would be notified if disclosure happened (intentionally, accidental, etc.). Likewise, need to see details on data retention (backups) --- duration and long term retention even when/if no longer a customer.


4. Clear billing - I like what BuyVM does with accounts by pro-rating the initial month. Then subsequent month invoice is due on the 1st I believe. No forgetting about paying on some random day. Works with most pay cycles and how I delegate my invoices for payments.


4a. Clear billing # 2 - Taxes. Not such a big deal on the low end, but other providers have several annoying taxes and surcharges that have crept up over the years. I've seen sales tax and similar as well as in one US city, a tax bill for colocation that came from outer space unannounced.


5. Standard money - More and more offers seem to be headed to alternative currencies like the euro and BitCoin. The euro in particular has been a yo-yo ride of sorts lately. When adding up all my costs for the tax man, the tax pro in the middle wondered why all these varying prices, oh the to USD to euro. I can't imagine the complication and loss here and there in dealing with say BitCoin.


6. SLA - too many providers claim uptime, but can't prove such / fail to facilitate monitoring of things publicly. Beyond that, no SLA document saying what is covered and when. Finally, when SLA threshold crossed, I shouldn't have to ticket, beg and point for a service credit. Lots of major provider failures (like releasing customer database) and no credit issued, that's common sense 101.


7. Addon services --- I like to see in cart as well as in post order management system available addon options. If I need 10TB more transit this month, I want to be able to go and buy it proactively and not have to bother a human and wait.


7a. Addons --- I like to see things like MySQL server (although I don't use it due to overhead slowness), DNS (nice to see folks offering Rage4 for customers), additional IPs (small legitimate need for this) and DDoS protection (would be nice to be able to get new protect IP as needed to self null when/if stupidity happens).


8. Virtualization - I can't trust folks running OpenVZ, neither can other buyers. OpenVZ has been soiled beyond belief by dishonest VPS companies. I like to see KVM and Xen. Still can be gamed, but nowhere as common/easy/documented on how to do the 80 2GB accounts on a server with SSDs to eliminate the disk swapping/mapping SSD to RAM.


9. Facility / upstream - Too few ads and even provider websites talk about the network. It is mostly about the network folks. I care about who is shipping my packets in and out, not just what the facility has and I'll never see in my bandwidth mix. Does the provider run a HE or Cogent focused network? Looking at ASN info isn't enough and requires my footwork. Some times I want a geographic out leg that maybe is Cogent, while other times I really want Level 3 due to peering they have in a region.


Facility info is less important. I'll see Equinix or Dupont mentioned by some braggarts, but they hide the fact that they aren't there and are renting servers from a middle man, which is a problem.


10. Own or rent - I care if a provider owns or rents. I use providers who own their own gear (have had a noticeably better experience with them) and I use providers who rent/lease server (a few that are good, but tons that are clueless). It matters strategically to business folks buying services. I maintain a healthy ratio of more owners than rent/leasers. Why? Because those renting/leasing tend to fail in greater numbers and are willing to bail quicker. Those owning gear have a great investment and some attachment to their gear and are slower to change providers.


11. Reviews and endorsements --- I care about seeing who is using a provider. I want to see companies, real companies stating they are a happy customer of the very same services. Companies I can call on the phone if need be to confirm.


Online reviews are nice, but they often have problems. So when offering reviews as backing, they should be to places that are heavily moderated and the reviewer should have a good amount of activity and be known in the community. Zero credence is given to teenage dorks endorsing anything on some random website in the back channel of the 'net.


12. Old fashioned checksums - I look for info on the company on their website. Are you a good standing BBB member or someone the BBB rates are a D- ? Have you received any awards? Does the ownership contribute to some open source project? It is all about community. A business that operates as a hidden online island and forgets or doesn't have any visibility or is detached from physical reality sends up flags --- am I dealing with a masked subsidiary of a company? Is the ownership a bunch of HackForums children? Are these people actually credible? Why should I trust these folks when real people seem not to?


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## SkylarM (Jun 10, 2013)

Good post buffalooed!

3) We offer a Privacy Policy, but haven't included information as to the period of time in which we keep records. The biggest thing here I guess is how would you go about indicating this? By default WHMCS keeps details and doesn't auto purge. We do want to offer clients that are cancelling or clients that signed up and didn't purchase a service the ability to delete their account from the system so we have no data on them at all, but not entirely sure the best way to approach this.

4) Clear billing is awesome. Gotta love pro-rated services. So much easier to deal with on both ends.

6) I like the comment about credit being given when it is due, rather than requiring customers to chase after the host and demand what they are told they get in the event of downtime. Always a nice surprise when you login to request credit and you notice you've already been given it.

Fantastic post all around  Great to have a discussion in this area.


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## drmike (Jun 10, 2013)

Thanks @SkylarM.


Let's see about some of the fine points:


3. Privacy Policy --- and WHMCS data retention -


I think this is a big deal really, for most customers. If we look at one big well known provider who had a full database dump going on, the data came in that instance from SolusVM. So both management systems need addressed in cleaning up and not retaining data too long. How many prior customers of that company had their email and realization they were a customer declared to the world? Lots.


My rule with data retention is to be honest and forthcoming, even in failures or technical hurdles like this.


Rule of thumb on the length of time to retain a customers log-in and/or billing details, one calendar quarter -- 90 days from last day of service. If they return, they have to recreate an account, yes it is an issue, but it helps keep all sorts of weird things from happening (like those emails about every time a certain provider craps the bed, who I haven't been with in years).


It is equally important to deal with the backup issue and retention. Nothing worse than being a former customer and a year later somehow my data appears in public from my VPS. It certainly has happened. Lots of people go on backwards in time fishing expeditions dishonestly. There are certain retention lengths that may be applicable to providers under law, so comply with those if you want to 


4) Pro-rated billing - more folks need to do that. Not necessarily the 1st of the month either.


The added benefit of the pro-rated partial month is I use it as a "test drive" of the service at a reduced cost. Sometimes I ask for freebie trials, but this works just as well and doesn't have any being partial or being put on special well behaved server (which skews testing often).


6) Service credits and SLAs in the low end segment just don't exist, all while every company claims 99.9x% uptime. It's fraud. When you order a service there are features and with these data services there is uptime, and on the flip side, down time tolerance with penalties.


Fact is, the list I constructed is kind of how I buy most things. When you start paying attention to the products you buy, the quality or lack thereof and overall satisfaction, quickly you should notice you are being defrauded. People dismiss that as being a crank and say what is a few dollars? Those dollars compounded over time and from many purchases add up to real money and lots of lost time.


Hard to write a scathing review of a < $7 offer since the amount in business is rather paltry and unbelievable. Many low cost companies bank on that idea and dismiss every complaint in unfriendly terms, mocking the complainer or just entirely ignoring them.


I have more points to add to my list and will create an addendum later.


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## SkylarM (Jun 10, 2013)

I suppose the biggest issue with data retention is there's no easy solution to removing client details. Most providers likely view it as too troublesome to dig through their database and remove people manually, and I'd definitely not let an automated process handle it. SolusVM is a bit harder to deal with if you offer DNS services, as the automated delete command that Solus offers will delete any client without a physical VM attached to the account, and doesn't factor in any active DNS services.

I entirely agree with data retention limits though. I was shocked to learn that Limestonenetworks (as an example) still has my entire account on file from ~6 years ago, and that introduces some interesting security risks if the data was to become compromised.

In regards to 4 -- why are more companies NOT prorating services? It just makes too much sense TO do it. Many many years ago I didn't do prorating and billing was a right pain in the ass. Money was just coming in left and right, always trying to meet deadlines. If you can prorate services to the 1st, and get your services for colocation/whatever you may be doing to the 5th or later, it just makes paying bills and being on time that much simpler. The only real issue with this is when do you set your pro-rate to charge for an additional month on top of the partial (I have mine set to the 15th at the moment). As well as the interesting issue of first month being partial so a cheaper entry point for abusers. What feels like an acceptable timeframe for an additional month being tacked on to the prorate? Does having a refund policy have any significant impact on the prorate in this case?


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## SeriesN (Jun 10, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> buffalooed, on 10 Jun 2013 - 4:22 PM, said:
> 
> 
> SLA - too many providers claim uptime, but can't prove such / fail to facilitate monitoring of things publicly. Beyond that, no SLA document saying what is covered and when. Finally, when SLA threshold crossed, I shouldn't have to ticket, beg and point for a service credit. Lots of major provider failures (like releasing customer database) and no credit issued, that's common sense 101


While we never mention this, I think all of my clients can agree to the fact that they have always been credited for any unexpected downtime.

But this thread is really useful and showes me a lot of way to improve our service. Bookmarked and following.


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## drmike (Jun 10, 2013)

Short on time at the moment so @SkylarM.


Pro-rate service --- BuyVM does pro-rate services on the initial month. At last check, they bill then only for that month, not first partial month plus the next month.


The billing for the next month, yeah, not a fan of it. I've not signed up to multiple providers because of that sort of billing.


Does it lower the entry point for abuse? Sure it does. But arguably the best way to invite abusers is to advertise in some places and offer the crazy unreal pricing. No judgment of your billable model or anything with that.


Unsure about the fraud services folks use, but there needs to be a third party service that does more than IP checks. I'd like to see a customer verification that indicates some infractions, suspensions, etc. Sort of like what one gets from a credit report sort of, minus the personal details or even the company that levied the red marks. Obviously, an abuse-able system for rogue providers, but that is easily self corrected 


Refund policies on first month should be unconditional. No BS, 100% refund.


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## SkylarM (Jun 10, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> Short on time at the moment so @SkylarM.
> 
> 
> Pro-rate service --- BuyVM does pro-rate services on the initial month. At last check, they bill then only for that month, not first partial month plus the next month.
> ...


Appreciate the elaboration. Obviously the low price point introduces these abuse issues regardless, I will give you that. The only reason for the + month prorate is because if you sign up say on the 25th, or heck the 28th, paying for the partial month and then getting an invoice on the following cron job just seems a bit awkward. If a company generates invoices say 10 days before the invoice is due, would a + month prorate make sense for the same period?

As far as information retention, I am going to add that to our policies and will work on a better solution to dealing with the removal of client information. I do strongly agree with everything that has been mentioned in regards to the retention periods.



SeriesN said:


> While we never mention this, I think all of my clients can agree to the fact that they have always been credited for any unexpected downtime.
> 
> 
> But this thread is really useful and showes me a lot of way to improve our service. Bookmarked and following.


This is something that I have been debating dealing with in policy format for a while. While we do advertise 99.98% uptime, if a client does incur downtime we will of course credit them for it -- but as of now there is no SLA policy on this, which I can agree seems more than necessary if advertising an uptime guarantee.


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## SeriesN (Jun 10, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> Refund policies on first month should be unconditional. No BS, 100% refund.



30day refund policy for budget industry is overkill


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## drmike (Jun 10, 2013)

SkylarM said:


> If a company generates invoices say 10 days before the invoice is due, would a + month prorate make sense for the same period?


Indeed orders in the last week or so billing period present this problem. Perhaps a cut off date or something to bill the two months.


At minimum, as I presented the pro-rate the new customer gets a bill after paying partial month. It should be clear why the bill is going to be due and such. I've dealt with this and never been confused. Also increases the priority to test and use the VPS.


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## drmike (Jun 10, 2013)

&nbsp;



SeriesN said:


> 30day refund policy for budget industry is overkill


&nbsp;

Well, plenty of low cost and low margin items out there (non hosting) with unconditional money back guarantees.


Global grocery retailer Aldi has such a policy. I've seen people bring back to the store random amounts of consumed goods they were unhappy with (many $1-3) range for a cash refund.


I know refunds are a problem. Would a chargeback/dispute be a bigger problem? Probably.


Most people on this planet are very honest and have good intentions. Steering clear of the youthes with limited budgets and teen issues is a good start to provider sanity.


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## SkylarM (Jun 10, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> Indeed orders in the last week or so billing period present this problem. Perhaps a cut off date or something to bill the two months.
> 
> 
> At minimum, as I presented the pro-rate the new customer gets a bill after paying partial month. It should be clear why the bill is going to be due and such. I've dealt with this and never been confused. Also increases the priority to test and use the VPS.


I may not have been clear in my initial post when I mentioned pro-rating including a full month on top of the partial.

As of now, here's how I work things:


If you order on the 14th, you are charged for the 14th to the 1st of the following month. If you sign up on the 15th of the month, you are charged for the 15th to the 1st of the following month PLUS one full month. Say you ordered today, your next invoice would be 7/1. If you order on the 15th, your next invoice would be 8/1. I have my cutoff date mid month instead of the same day that invoices are generated (10 days prior to service being due)

WHMCS at least does a decent job at indicating the date of service on the order form itself.


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## SeriesN (Jun 10, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> &nbsp; &nbsp;
> 
> 
> I know refunds are a problem. Would a chargeback/dispute be a bigger problem? Probably.
> ...


If you are filing chargeback and dispute after using 30 days of service, there is a strong chance that any well prepared provider will win that dispute. 

Theoretically, 

You can only dispute 2 types of payments, 1) Service not received/wrong item and seller did not communicate or provided wrong info and 2) Fraud/Unauthorized charges.

If it is 1, you are defrauding a company because you received and used the product for 30days before saying it is not what it was supposed to be? IMho, 7 days should be more than enough to evaluate a provider. If issue happens after 7 days, which is intentional or providers fault, provider should credit/refund customer.

If it is no 2, well it was bound to happen. Be it 7 days or 100 days refund policy.


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## drmike (Jun 10, 2013)

@SkylarM, that example of pro rated makes sense. The 15th onward + next month, well not my sort of thing. I've had folks try that on much more expensive things (say $50+ items) and I just went shopping elsewhere. On the low end, it is fine with low dollar amounts I suspect. Bigger stuff though will end in more abandoned purchases.


@SeriesN, the chargeback and dispute window for a guarantee should be outlined at setup/pre signup. I am a fan of shorter term no questions asked guarantees with services like this. A seven or ten day period should be sufficient.


My example of the el cheapo grocery store strikes to the point about margins and no nonsense stance of standing behind your products. Grocers aren't achieving a very high percentage per item of profit margin and have the physical good cost outlay and shipping and physical store presence, plus any transaction fees. Data providers in contrast have fairly fixed costs and an otherwise idle server. So much easier in theory to back the deals with total refund and no bickering with the customer.


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## SeriesN (Jun 10, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> @SkylarM, that example of pro rated makes sense. The 15th onward + next month, well not my sort of thing. I've had folks try that on much more expensive things (say $50+ items) and I just went shopping elsewhere. On the low end, it is fine with low dollar amounts I suspect. Bigger stuff though will end in more abandoned purchases.
> 
> 
> @SeriesN, the chargeback and dispute window for a guarantee should be outlined at setup/pre signup. I am a fan of shorter term no questions asked guarantees with services like this. A seven or ten day period should be sufficient.
> ...


Grocers in most cases can return these products as well as most of the time, these will be exchange only. Afaik, I or any provider can't get refund on bandwidth and other usage.


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## drmike (Jun 10, 2013)

SeriesN said:


> Grocers in most cases can return these products as well as most of the time, these will be exchange only. Afaik, I or any provider can't get refund on bandwidth and other usage.


Hmmm, well Aldi runs most of its products themselves. Surely they probably pass mass failures back to manufacturing, but most probably are just wrote off to combat mass profits.


Bandwidth is something a user could incur as a cost, but most do not. BW often is part of the providers package that invoices the same each month absent overages.


I am sympathetic, but I'd be writing down refunds for test drives against advertising/marketing budget and managing the outcomes well (the public speaking customer that was unhappy).


My opinion as a non provider is that most VPS providers have low fixed costs either way. Idle server or me test driving things. I have yet to do a chargeback of any sort, but I've demanded a full month credit with one RTO provider on colo side that delivered sub-optimal servers with repeated drive problems.


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