# Incero Review - AVOID



## shovenose (Jun 21, 2013)

Short version if you don't want to read: don't sign up with this horrible company run by arrogant management.

The service itself is fine, but if you ask a question regarding some network performance they will terminate your server, take all of your customers offline immediately with no warning or time to back up your critical customer data (if the data was not important I would not have chosen to pay for a server with hardware RAID10 and a BBU).

I'm going to post a detailed version later I am just so angry I cannot even type right now. But yes, if you were a BetterVPS customer your data has now been deleted simply because of the below support ticket response. Sure, I said shit, but come on get a life.

_Well, I've done some testing and your theory is BS. Here's why:
Test server #1: my Incero dedicated server mango.bettervps.com
Test server #2: a CatalystHost VPS: 162.212.57.119?

disk benchmark of #1 at time of testing: 252 MB/s (2016Mb/s)
disk benchmark of #2 at time of testing: 106 MB/s (848Mb/s)

scp a 100mbps test file from #1 to #2: 25MB/s (200Mbps)
scp the same 100mbps test file from #2 to #1: 14.3MB/s (114.4Mbps)

This disproves your theory of disk bottleneck. Additionally, it proves that it is not transferring filese at Gigabit speeds, even in the internally and according to a previous response from you "on the same switch as ryan arp."

Clearly you are not giving me the "dedicated 1Gbps" I was told would come with this server. It's working fine otherwise and my clients are happy. But I am not. I expect to get those speeds always. Clearly your "~27gbit/second spare capacity" is not working.

Additionally, I do not appreciate your condescending and rude attitude. I understand it's an unmanaged service however I am paying for the hardware and network and I am not getting what I paid for. I don't care if I pay $18/month, $180/month, or $1800/month, I am a client that does not deserve to be treated like or spoken to as a piece of shit._


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## drmike (Jun 21, 2013)

Ouch.

Gordon (Incero) is a good guy, but he doesn't put up with much nonsense.  Great guy actually, but more than a few people have met his other side.  Shame that this ended this way.  It is a good location and his gear is pretty beefy.

Definitely have some performance issues going on with that server.

Am I correct that you were SCP'ing from Catalyst and to Catalyst from your server in the same facility?  Should be like 1ms away.

SCP does have crypto overhead, and unsure about CPU workloads.



> _cp a 100mbps test file from #1 to #2: 25MB/s (200Mbps)
> scp the same 100mbps test file from #2 to #1: 14.3MB/s (114.4Mbps)_


These speeds are paltry.  Nowhere near gigabit and especially where same facility.

Did you test something speed wise without using crypto overhead and send the file to null to avoid any disk io thrashing/queuing/competition?

Me personally, I slap two Nginx servers up in a scenario like this and put a big test file on each instance and test with wget -O /dev/null.   That eliminates crypto issues, removes disk IO issues and gives you pure network throughput.

Finally, did you work with the Catalyst folks to debug the slowness on the network side?   (I'd test known speedtests on your sever and their VPS ndoe)


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## bzImage (Jun 21, 2013)

While I am personally not happy with how long it took us to resolve our own networking issues, we at least admited to them, It's a shame not all providers can admit their weaknesses, though thankfully we finally resolved our own.

Just in my mailbox:

"Hello Rob,

I want to get an update on the 10gig port please

Bob has finished my new router and I must say, it's one sexy beast.

Francisco"


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## kaniini (Jun 21, 2013)

shovenose said:


> Short version if you don't want to read: don't sign up with this horrible company run by arrogant management.
> 
> 
> The service itself is fine, but if you ask a question regarding some network performance they will terminate your server, take all of your customers offline immediately with no warning or time to back up your critical customer data (if the data was not important I would not have chosen to pay for a server with hardware RAID10 and a BBU).
> ...


Three thoughts:

1.  TCP throughput degrades significantly with increases in latency due to windowing.  There's a bunch of tweaks that can be made to improve throughput.  (This is why large test files show a better picture than small test files on file downloads).

2. SCP performance should not be considered a real-world network performance measurement.  There are many design flaws in the SSH protocol which make it suboptimal for highspeed file transfers.  The OpenSSH-HPN (High Performance Networking) patch fixes a lot of these flaws and allows for line-rate gbps SCP.  Effectively the problem here is that SSH has it's own RWIN that colludes with the TCP RWIN to give you doubly bad performance.

3. Incero is probably not the best choice for people wanting a performance network.  To be frank, there is a rather embarassing thread on WebHostingTalk where he makes claims about nLayer which allegedly do not hold true.  Either way, it shows that his understanding of network engineering is less than it should be at the "running a DC" level.

Also, does this mean I should disable the probe monitoring the latency to BetterVPS?


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## Marc M. (Jun 21, 2013)

Yep, looks like this was handled in a very professional manner.


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## shovenose (Jun 21, 2013)

To add some information. I ran various speedtests using wget, speedtest-cli, etc. and all had varying horrible results. I'm editing out personal/private/password info from the ticket and will be posting it shortly. He made several claims that were not true.


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## drmike (Jun 21, 2013)

I think I am going to get some popcorn for this thread 

I can't believe you were shitcanned @shovenose... Did he say for using the shit word or something else?   I have wussy babies in support who cancel for profanity.  It comes with the job ladies.  Things aren't happy, in comes a thunderstorm and a moaning customer.


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## shovenose (Jun 21, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> I think I am going to get some popcorn for this thread
> 
> I can't believe you were shitcanned @shovenose... Did he say for using the shit word or something else?   I have wussy babies in support who cancel for profanity.  It comes with the job ladies.  Things aren't happy, in comes a thunderstorm and a moaning customer.


The worst things I said were "BS" and "shit" you'll see though, about to post the ticket.


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## drmike (Jun 21, 2013)

shovenose said:


> The worst things I said were "BS" and "shit"



Wow, those are pretty, normal words... Half of us use worse when communicating in friendly terms 

I recommend using buffaloshit instead.  Some sort of cow discrimination racket.


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## Marc M. (Jun 21, 2013)

*@**shovenose* short of threatening someone over there at Incero that you would tie them behind your and drag them down the freeway, they had no right to just cancel you. Just looked at their website... wait, what weibsite  ?!

I hope that you at least got your moeny back.


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## TheLinuxBug (Jun 21, 2013)

shovenose said:


> Short version if you don't want to read: don't sign up with this horrible company run by arrogant management.


First off, seriously?  You should have known by Gordon's interactions on LET that he is a bit arrogant. Also, I believe on the one occasion I am thinking of, I pointed out their routes to EU pretty much suck most of the time.   Their network is decent inside the US, but as you noticed your not gonna get a lot of high rate sustained transfers to many places with them.  However, I will say this, I have noticed recently a few different people whining like little girls when they pick shared gigabit and don't get over 20M/sec. In my experience if you are getting 20M/sec on most shared Giabit your doing pretty good.  I am not saying that you shouldn't be able to burst now and again, but those of you thinking you will be pushing sustained 60M/sec+ transfers on shared gigabit have another thing coming to you.

If you truly want to see a a full Gigabit, you should expect to purchase dedicated gigabit to your server.  Most of the time when you are on share gigabit they have ~20 people sharing a 10Gbit back-end, in essence overselling 2:1. So actually purchasing dedicated Gigabit will mean you get a 1 to 1 commit, meaning you will get full gigabit. 

I am going to bet in this case you have a shared gigabit connect and your expecting to use the whole thing all the time.  If you truly want dedicated gigabit, then pay for it, and then when they don't deliver I will be first in line behind you with the pitchfork.  Until then, learn to pick your fights. Obviously, for what you are paying, they didn't find your account and putting up with you worth the money.

Cheers!


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## SeriesN (Jun 21, 2013)

First CC, now Incero. Don't you think you need to be more professional when you are dealing with providers, the same way you treat your clients? I do not have any service with any of your company's but judging by the public appearance of you and your commander in charge, I as a person wouldn't touch your service with a 100 mile pole.


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## shovenose (Jun 21, 2013)

TheLinuxBug said:


> First off, seriously?  You should have known by Gordon's interactions on LET that he is a bit arrogant. Also, I believe on the one occasion I am thinking of, I pointed out their routes to EU pretty much suck most of the time.   Their network is decent inside the US, but as you noticed your not gonna get a lot of high rate sustained transfers to many places with them.  However, I will say this, I have noticed recently a few different people whining like little girls when they pick shared gigabit and don't get over 20M/sec. In my experience if you are getting 20M/sec on most shared Giabit your doing pretty good.  I am not saying that you shouldn't be able to burst now and again, but those of you thinking you will be pushing sustained 60M/sec+ transfers on shared gigabit have another thing coming to you.
> 
> If you truly want to see a a full Gigabit, you should expect to purchase dedicated gigabit to your server.  Most of the time when you are on share gigabit they have ~20 people sharing a 10Gbit back-end, in essence overselling 2:1. So actually purchasing dedicated Gigabit will mean you get a 1 to 1 commit, meaning you will get full gigabit.
> 
> ...


First off, he promised me that it was a "dedicated gigabit"

Second, even a cheap $35/month DataShack dedicated server can kick ass of the speeds I got from Incero.

Anyway, here is the entire ticket. Last response from him was pasted in email. I'm lucky I still had the tab open from before  because he blocked me from his entire ticket system via firewall.

http://i.imgur.com/7ycfy0M.jpg


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## Marc M. (Jun 21, 2013)

TheLinuxBug said:


> You should have known by Gordon's interactions on LET that he is a bit arrogant


If a business person / owner is arrogant and full of himslef, acting in a mysoginistic and hateful manner towards his customers then he doesn't deserve his customers. I wonder how arrogance pays the bills every month? I guess that this guy can send out a few pictures of his middle finger in the upright position every month with his bills instead of actual checks. I mean, who really knows... opcorn:


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## SeriesN (Jun 21, 2013)

6/2, "I am clueless about how kvm works", less then 2 week later, " BetterVps, enterprise managed kvm". Yepp yepp.


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## Marc M. (Jun 21, 2013)

SeriesN said:


> 6/2, "I am clueless about how kvm works", less then 2 week later, " BetterVps, enterprise managed kvm". Yepp yepp.


*@**SeriesN* lol, how does one go from no clue to Enterprise in 2 weeks? I wonder what I/O scheduler he configured for best perfomance on his KVM node(s)?


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## SeriesN (Jun 21, 2013)

marcm said:


> *@SeriesN* lol, how does one go from no clue to Enterprise in 2 weeks? I wonder what I/O scheduler he configured for best perfomance on his KVM node(s)?


It IZ INTERNAT! It took me six month of planning and tweaking before my kvm went live. 

God bless solus.


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## TheLinuxBug (Jun 21, 2013)

marcm said:


> If a business person / owner is arrogant and full of himslef, acting in a mysoginistic and hateful manner towards his customers then he doesn't deserve his customers. I wonder how arrogance pays the bills every month? I guess that this guy can send out a few pictures of his middle finger in the upright position every month with his bills instead of actual checks. I mean, who really knows...



First off,I do not have anything personal against Gordon. It has been my experience, however,  that if your patient and work with him, he will work with you.  Though, as some  others have mentioned, if your a dick (or he thinks you are being so) he will quickly toss you aside like yesterdays used underwear.  My bet is he already knew *@shovenose* reputation and wasn't willing to deal with his whining and neediness.  That being said, I have never found their network that great.  

So I am curious, did he give you a good deal on this dedicated gigabit?  If you were paying under $500.00/month for your server+commit, then let me tell you, it wasn't a dedicated commit.  Maybe you had a dedicated 1Gbit port, but I am betting you were on a shared network connect. As I said, on "premium" shared networks it isn't abnormal to average around 20M/sec for sustained transfers. 

P.S. in my opinion, if you had hopes of ever having a server there with them again or getting your server back online, you ruined that hope the second you made this thread.

Cheers!


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## Aldryic C'boas (Jun 21, 2013)

> wasn't willing to deal with his whining and neediness


To be 100% honest... if that ticket were with us, it would've never made it past the price bickering.

As far as losing customer data... the last date on that ticket on setup looked to be the 17th.  You only had a server up for 3 days in a new deployment, and *didn't* do extensive testing to make sure it passed spec before you started loading clients on it?


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## SeriesN (Jun 21, 2013)

"Enterprise Managed KVM YO!".



Aldryic C said:


> To be 100% honest... if that ticket were with us, it would've never made it past the price bickering.
> 
> As far as losing customer data... the last date on that ticket on setup looked to be the 17th. You only had a server up for 3 days in a new deployment, and *didn't* do extensive testing to make sure it passed spec before you started loading clients on it?


As soon as someone posts on a pre sales ticket " I am not very good with linux", my first response has always been, " Are you looking for full managed vps or do you have server admin available?".


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## drmike (Jun 21, 2013)

TheLinuxBug said:


> If you were paying under $500.00/month for your server+commit, then let me tell you, it wasn't a dedicated commit.


Face it, there aren't many small or low end providers outlaying cash like that for dedicated bandwidth.   Especially where they are into a facility 1-3 servers.   It's very rare.

The problem with what gets sold vs. what it actually is (bandwidth), is well, legendary distortion with some providers.  Incero, not so much though.  Something was wrong in the software stack, a config of some sort of NIC issues.

I'm stumped by the network performance for a same-location transfer, especially if compression and scp were eliminated from the puzzle.

I've been a fan of the network at Corexchange.  Incero uses Corexchange's blend plus adds to it their own Cogent (Corexchange has Cogent in their blend already) and nLayer.  nLayer is kind of hit or miss for me elsewhere and blah.  The Corexchange blend is heavy on Level3,  Abovenet and NTT.   I'd take that network over most networks in the US.  Incero's usage seems to be 46% Cogent,  38% Corexchange and 15% nLayer, so very different that Corexchange house blend.


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## SeriesN (Jun 21, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> Face it, there aren't many small or low end providers outlaying cash like that for dedicated bandwidth.   Especially where they are into a facility 1-3 servers.   It's very rare.
> 
> The problem with what gets sold vs. what it actually is (bandwidth), is well, legendary distortion with some providers.  Incero, not so much though.  Something was wrong in the software stack, a config of some sort of NIC issues.
> 
> ...


I liked and still like CX ( We have couple of nodes there and started NH from there, being a direct CX client that is), but right now, I am loving Internap bandwidth.


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## drmike (Jun 21, 2013)




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## TheLinuxBug (Jun 21, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> Doesn't exempt the provider (Incero) from justifying piss poor lack of network throughput though.  The damn testing was done to another customer in the same facility (Doh!). No packets left the local network/VLAN.


 

Honestly, there are a lot of unknowns here.  My bet is Catalyst owned their hardware and colocates it, if this is the case, they may be using a better gigabit nic in their server than what he has.  Also, this could be some issues with server config, TCP window sizes, etc.  You can not compare apples to oranges and expect the same results.  Do you know if Catalyst has their own routers and networking hardware?  Do they use fiber to connect instead of copper? You get the picture.

You should have been more patient with them and worked with them to find a resolution. Instead it seems you were quick to call them idiots and tell them they didn't know what they were doing.  In short, I do not think you were very professional.  Also, in cases where you have issues like this, PICK UP THE PHONE and call them. Often times in tickets they can be misunderstood or someone said something and it didn't come across the way it should.  If I were you, that would have been the first thing I would have done.

Anyhow, you pretty much burnt a bridge with this thread, so now we are just beating a dead horse.

Cheers!


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## shovenose (Jun 21, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> Face it, there aren't many small or low end providers outlaying cash like that for dedicated bandwidth.   Especially where they are into a facility 1-3 servers.   It's very rare.
> 
> The problem with what gets sold vs. what it actually is (bandwidth), is well, legendary distortion with some providers.  Incero, not so much though.  Something was wrong in the software stack, a config of some sort of NIC issues.


I specifically asked about it. Look at the ticket. I was assured it was a dedicated gigabit of bandwidth. He could have told me it was shared bandwidth, would have been no big deal. But it doesn't resolve the issue that I've got 100 meg ports from other providers that have better upload than that WITHOUT ANY OF THESE OPTIMIZATIONS.


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## SeriesN (Jun 21, 2013)

TheLinuxBug said:


> Honestly, there are a lot of unknowns here.  My bet is Catalyst owned their hardware and colocates it, if this is the case, they may be using a better gigabit nic in their server than what he has.  Also, this could be some issues with server config, TCP window sizes, etc.  You can not compare apples to oranges and expect the same results.  Do you know if Catalyst has their own routers and networking hardware?  Do they use fiber to connect instead of copper? You get the picture.



Afaik, these are rented hardware . They will be there soon though. VERY SOON!


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## shovenose (Jun 21, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> Face it, there aren't many small or low end providers outlaying cash like that for dedicated bandwidth.   Especially where they are into a facility 1-3 servers.   It's very rare.
> 
> The problem with what gets sold vs. what it actually is (bandwidth), is well, legendary distortion with some providers.  Incero, not so much though.  Something was wrong in the software stack, a config of some sort of NIC issues.


I specifically asked about it. Look at the ticket. I was assured it was a dedicated gigabit of bandwidth. He could have told me it was shared bandwidth, would have been no big deal. But it doesn't resolve the issue that I've got 100 meg ports from other providers that have better upload than that WITHOUT ANY OF THESE OPTIMIZATIONS.


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## shovenose (Jun 21, 2013)

TheLinuxBug said:


> Honestly, there are a lot of unknowns here.  My bet is Catalyst owned their hardware and colocates it, if this is the case, they may be using a better gigabit nic in their server than what he has.  Also, this could be some issues with server config, TCP window sizes, etc.  You can not compare apples to oranges and expect the same results.  Do you know if Catalyst has their own routers and networking hardware?  Do they use fiber to connect instead of copper? You get the picture.
> 
> You should have been more patient with them and worked with them to find a resolution. Instead it seems you were quick to call them idiots and tell them they didn't know what they were doing.  In short, I do not think you were very professional.  Also, in cases where you have issues like this, PICK UP THE PHONE and call them. Often times in tickets they can be misunderstood or someone said something and it didn't come across the way it should.  If I were you, that would have been the first thing I would have done.
> 
> ...


They do not pick up the phone. I have called them on several occasions, left very nice voicemails, etc.


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## jarland (Jun 21, 2013)

Bottom line is be respectful to your provider. Don't treat them like your house servant. You pay for service but you're also expected to be a decent human being. They have other clients. Catalyst can burst gigabit speeds (I do it to Atlanta) and its quite evident that a software issue is certainly up there in the list of possibilities. When the provider tells you it's definitely not on their end, you either trust them or don't, but when you accuse them of being wrong and curse at them you should probably make backups.


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## Kris (Jun 21, 2013)

TheLinuxBug said:


> First off,I do not have anything personal against Gordon. It has been my experience, however, that if your patient and work with him, he will work with you. Though, as some others have mentioned, if your a dick (or he thinks you are being so) he will quickly toss you aside like yesterdays used underwear.


I've personally heard Gordon's a bit of a twat. Not sure of what happened here, but if the deleted server fits...


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## concerto49 (Jun 21, 2013)

Have to add that Incero's changing of policies around at different times, giving clients very little time to act on most things and putting charges and what feels like threats on everything happening hasn't provided a great experience. It definitely feels that Gordon can be nice at times, but suddenly flip on it again.

Currently do have a service at Incero and that would be my review of it.

It appears that they don't have 24/7 support or perhaps support at all and any higher priority support = payment or ignored. It will be refunded if it's a real issue, but that still feels like a threat / poor practice. It's not the way to go.

Anyway, all this is known as per what's been on LET etc.


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## jarland (Jun 21, 2013)

SeriesN said:


> Afaik, these are rented hardware . They will be there soon though. VERY SOON!


This is true and actually a carefully made choice for a lot of reasons I won't bore anyone with here, but I'm actually quite proud of this detail


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## shovenose (Jun 21, 2013)

jarland said:


> Bottom line is be respectful to your provider. Don't treat them like your house servant. You pay for service but you're also expected to be a decent human being. They have other clients. Catalyst can burst gigabit speeds (I do it to Atlanta) and its quite evident that a software issue is certainly up there in the list of possibilities. When the provider tells you it's definitely not on their end, you either trust them or don't, but when you accuse them of being wrong and curse at them you should probably make backups.


Jarland, I lost respect for him when it was clear he did not value having me a customer. Did I call him an "arrogant prick" in the support ticket? No. I just said that I thought his theory was BS and that I did not appreciate being treated like shit.


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## concerto49 (Jun 21, 2013)

shovenose said:


> Jarland, I lost respect for him when it was clear he did not value having me a customer. Did I call him an "arrogant prick" in the support ticket? No. I just said that I thought his theory was BS and that I did not appreciate being treated like shit.


Incero is like an empire. You either agree with the king or you don't. Having said that our service works fine. It's mainly the policies / support / etc that I disagree on.


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## shovenose (Jun 21, 2013)

concerto49 said:


> Incero is like an empire. You either agree with the king or you don't. Having said that our service works fine. It's mainly the policies / support / etc that I disagree on.


Yes, well I might not be the best with this stuff but I treat my customers like people. Not like worthless pain in the asses.


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## drmike (Jun 21, 2013)

I wouldn't have cancelled @shovenose in a hurry like this.  Shit and bullshit are nothing words. It's a crazy situation.   Those speeds were better than 100Mbps but in some places, barely.  It's more like a 200Mbps service.

I've been with many providers over the years.  Often the ones that can't or won't debug the issues like these aren't worth dealing with.  Certainly most are far more willing to determine the problem.

Others said it about 24/7 support not really existing and pay to get some more support.  Been there and done that elsewhere.  It's not a good approach.

I feel for the customers of BetterVPS.   What did you do with folks who signed up and were terminated in this matter?


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## Marc M. (Jun 21, 2013)

*@**shovenose* in my experience it is very important to pick a good DC to do business with. If you see arrogant behaviour and knee jerk reactions from the DC personal then just run the other way.


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## GVH-Jon (Jun 21, 2013)

And this is why ColoCrossing is the ideal budget dedicated provider in this industry.

:facedesk:

http://i.imgur.com/7ycfy0M.jpg <- Childish attitude all over it, most notably from Gordon.


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## jarland (Jun 21, 2013)

GVH-Jon said:


> And this is why ColoCrossing is the ideal budget dedicated provider in this industry.
> 
> 
> :facedesk:


Bahahahahahahaha


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## Marc M. (Jun 21, 2013)

GVH-Jon said:


> And this is why ColoCrossing is the ideal budget dedicated provider in this industry.


*@**GVH-Jon* sure is, I've asked Jon three times for some quotes and he didn't reply. In this business, that's two times too many. Maybe he's allergic to my money or something, who knows...


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## Aldryic C'boas (Jun 21, 2013)

> I wouldn't have cancelled @shovenose in a hurry like this.  Shit and bullshit are nothing words. It's a crazy situation.   Those speeds were better than 100Mbps but in some places, barely.  It's more like a 200Mbps service.


I could go either way on this one.  I've heard a decent amount now about this Incero now (had little knowledge of them prior).. but I can also see how they would look at the tickets they were getting and decide "Yeah... this needs to be nipped in the bud sooner rather than later".


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## GVH-Jon (Jun 21, 2013)

marcm said:


> *@GVH-Jon* sure is, I've asked Jon three times for some quotes and he didn't reply. In this business, that's two times too many. Maybe he's allergic to my money or something, who knows...


The only available method of contact is through PM, ticket, or direct email to a member of management. If you've emailed us at [email protected], we didn't receive it.


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## concerto49 (Jun 21, 2013)

GVH-Jon said:


> The only available method of contact is through PM, ticket, or direct email to a member of management. If you've emailed us at [email protected], we didn't receive it.


Not you. He's referring to the Colocrossing Jon or is this the same person?


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## GVH-Jon (Jun 21, 2013)

concerto49 said:


> Not you. He's referring to the Colocrossing Jon or is this the same person?


Dammit.. People mix me up with Jon Biloh a lot but I never thought I'd do it myself. It's 11:54 PM here, maybe it's a sign that I need some sleep.


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## shovenose (Jun 21, 2013)




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## Marc M. (Jun 21, 2013)

concerto49 said:


> Not you. He's referring to the Colocrossing Jon or is this the same person?


*@**concerto49* I PMd him on LET. Short of waving a red flag, I got his attention. I wanted to find out how competitive he could be. However he's just not interested in more business at the moment I take it. Heck, if the money's rolling in, why bother? Who cares about one more potential customer? I don't discriminate between DCs and I don't put customers right away on nodes either before I get a feel for what I'm in for. That being said, I won't be bothering him ever again, that's for sure.



shovenose said:


> And to GVH-Jon, ColoCrossing is a joke, and not "ideal" for anything. But that's offtopic.


*@**shovenose* that's my impression as well, and in this business the first impression is the last impression, because once you mistreat/ignore a customer or potential customer you can't do anything to change his mind ever again. I have dismissed as rumors most of the stuff I've read on forums about CC and Jon, but it seems like there is some truth to those rumors. Sad, but true...


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## shovenose (Jun 21, 2013)

marcm said:


> *@concerto49* I PMd him on LET. Short of waving a red flag, I got his attention. I wanted to find out how competitive he could be. However he's just not interested in more business at the moment I take it. Heck, if the money's rolling in, why bother? Who cares about one more potential customer? I don't discriminate between DCs and I don't put customers right away on nodes either before I get a feel for what I'm in for. That being said, I won't be bothering him ever again, that's for sure.
> 
> *@shovenose* that's my impression as well, and in this business the first impression is the last impression, because once you mistreat/ignore a customer or potential customer you can't do anything to change his mind ever again. I have dismissed as rumors most of the stuff I've read on forums about CC and Jon, but it seems like there is some truth to those rumors. Sad, but true...


I was actually going to get some servers from Jon Biloh ColoCrossing after the ChicagoVPS dedicated server debacle but the moment I mentioned I had a problem with ChicagoVPS he stopped replying to my emails.


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## Marc M. (Jun 21, 2013)

shovenose said:


> I was actually going to get some servers from Jon Biloh ColoCrossing after the ChicagoVPS dedicated server debacle but the moment I mentioned I had a problem with ChicagoVPS he stopped replying to my emails.


*@**shovenose* you seriously need to make up your mind about who you're doing business with, what you are doing, what you want to do and so on. Changing your oppinion, allegiances and business partners like a hooker changes socks doesn't reflect good on you at all.


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## WSWD (Jun 21, 2013)

We have been with Incero for a while now (several servers), and we have been nothing but pleased.  Their website (before they took it down for a redesign) was very, very clear in that you better know what they hell you are doing if you sign up, as they are unmanaged, and aren't going to hold your hand.

The only complaints I have ever seen are people who don't know their shit, and then complain when Incero won't help.  Can count the number of support tickets we have submitted on one hand (and still have fingers left over), and they were dealt with quickly and professionally.  Have chatted with Gordon on multiple occasions and he has always been a good guy.

As far as the network, I'll sustain gbit speeds all day long from any of our servers.  The only time we have ever seen less than gbit speeds was our own fault...the firewall was slowing things down.  Gordon and team were quick to help us troubleshoot and fix that problem.


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## Marc M. (Jun 21, 2013)

*@**WSWD* taking a functional site down before a redesign is completed is an extremely bad idea. As far as the rest of the drama is concerned, who really knows what transpired? *@**shovenose* loves attention, this one thing I'm pretty sure about (seeing how often he makes a statement, then changes his mind, then says something else, then changes his mind again...). Like many others here, I can only go on empirical evidence - so to speak.


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## SeriesN (Jun 21, 2013)

WSWD said:


> We have been with Incero for a while now (several servers), and we have been nothing but pleased.  Their website (before they took it down for a redesign) was very, very clear in that you better know what they hell you are doing if you sign up, as they are unmanaged, and aren't going to hold your hand.
> 
> The only complaints I have ever seen are people who don't know their shit, and then complain when Incero won't help.  Can count the number of support tickets we have submitted on one hand (and still have fingers left over), and they were dealt with quickly and professionally.  Have chatted with Gordon on multiple occasions and he has always been a good guy.
> 
> As far as the network, I'll sustain gbit speeds all day long from any of our servers.  The only time we have ever seen less than gbit speeds was our own fault...the firewall was slowing things down.  Gordon and team were quick to help us troubleshoot and fix that problem.


Hey wswd! We meet again


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## WSWD (Jun 21, 2013)

SeriesN said:


> Hey wswd! We meet again


LOL!!  Hi!!  



marcm said:


> *@WSWD* taking a functional site down before a redesign is completed is an extremely bad idea.


Has absolutely nothing to do with the problem though, bad idea or not.  You can still place orders just fine on their website or through tickets.  That's really all I care about.


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## Marc M. (Jun 21, 2013)

WSWD said:


> Has absolutely nothing to do with the problem though, bad idea or not. You can still place orders just fine on their website or through tickets. That's really all I care about.


*@**WSWD* I guess you see my point do, it's not practical. Anyway, I'm not in the habbit of arguing with DC personal so I don't run into issues like the ones mentioned in this thread. Being locked for long shifts in a DC with everyone hammering you, well, it's very stresful and the last thing you need is some "mucea" coming allong and ticking you off. If it's 3AM and you behave like that, it can get even worse. You have to take the human element into account as well. Heck, just ask Cisco about the human component of every network


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## EarthVPN (Jun 21, 2013)

Offtopic.Do you prefer Softlayer or Corexchange for dallas location, bandwidth quality wise ?


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## concerto49 (Jun 22, 2013)

EarthVPN said:


> Offtopic.Do you prefer Softlayer or Corexchange for dallas location, bandwidth quality wise ?


Prefers Internap. Surely @SeriesN would agree


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## ryanarp (Jun 22, 2013)

As most people here know Catalyst has been renting servers with Gordon (Incero) since January and we have nothing but good things to say about the product that he provides. In all conversations I have had with Gordon I have found him to be more than reasonable. Granted we have never tried to "low-ball" him and try to get the "best deal possible". We realize he provides a quality service and if we want that service, we better be willing to pay a reasonable price. That all being said it is always a good policy to respect your provider. I have a lot of respect for Gordon and the business that he runs. Currently we have 3 servers with Incero. Any issues that we did have, which were not many, once they were fixed Gordon has always been more than happy to change our billing date. We delayed Taylor Swift for about a week as we found out the disks that we ordered for SSD caching had some incompatibility with the raid card. Gordon swiftly overnighted drives of our choice which cost more than the original drives configured. I have a few other stories where Gordon has gone above and beyond. Full disclosure @shovenose told me "don't dare coming in there(this thread) and tooting more Incero horn and going on how great they are" However I do what I want and i will speak honestly about the providers I do business with. I do know people have had problems with Gordon, but that has not been my experience.


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## drmike (Jun 22, 2013)

shovenose said:


> but the moment I mentioned I had a problem with ChicagoVPS he stopped replying to my emails.


Well that's a simple obvious answer...

They are the same company.  Unhappy with CVPS means you would be unhappy with CC.

I actually had the exact same issue with a colo provider.  Sent sales inquiry in to another company in same local market.  They were interested until I said the facility I was having the problem with/at.   Turns out they kind of co-own that other company and do most of their technical hands on work and just about everything else, outside of their sales.

F'n shell companies.


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## Mun (Jun 22, 2013)

Damn I want that setup! Gordon if you are on here can you send me a quote for a colo ?

Mun


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## Marc M. (Jun 22, 2013)

ryanarp said:


> As most people here know Catalyst has been renting servers with Gordon (Incero) since January and we have nothing but good things to say about the product that he provides....


*@**ryanarp* I didn't want to quote your entire review, however I trust your word any day over *@**shovenose*'s. Knowing Jarland and Catalyst's reputation for honesty and integrity I'm glad that we have a balanced perspective on this issue and an honest review about Incero. There is no point in badmouthing any company, especially when they don't deserve it. Thanks for the review. I will consider Incero as well for future expansion if they'll provide the same quality of service that they provided for you guys 



buffalooed said:


> F'n shell companies.


*@* That has to be the most backwards attitude of any company that I have seen/heard of. How the heck can anyone be alergic to money, more business and potential revenue?


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## Tactical (Jun 22, 2013)

I got some Yeager! time to party! But on a real note it is a give and take relationship.You give them money and they take it! But you have to do your own investigating into the matter first. Make sure you done everything humanly possible to make sure you got your p's and q's lined up straight. Have alot of proof that something is wrong, the more the better.I personally think that someone did over react to the situation.I think that someone was trying to lead them in some kind of direction to see where the problem may occur. More Yeager! Ever seen a one legged man do the robot?


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## drmike (Jun 22, 2013)

Wait, I was reading the shovenose + incero back and forth ticket screencap.

Ryan was helping shovenose out. Cool 

And, Catalyst and shovenose were both on the same switch.   Something trainwrecked big time with that throughput now that was confirmed.

Gordo's responses were, umm, well, minimally helpful at points.   Surprised he doesn't hire a human to interface with the customers though.  Terse in places to downright umm insulting in others.

There were multiple issues with the order and setup.  Delays too.  Very long time (2 weeks+ from buy to getting booted).  Most of that seems to have been Incero and the other inferior controller.

The freaking price haggling though was a bit much.  Upgrades, free month, etc.

My bottom line is this is a dedicated server, so all providers should bank time to help get it going for customer as needed.  Typically setups are where problems are (unless client has dealt with you/staff/process/equipment recently).  I'd be displeased as a customer in this situation.


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## shovenose (Jun 22, 2013)

ryanarp said:


> As most people here know Catalyst has been renting servers with Gordon (Incero) since January and we have nothing but good things to say about the product that he provides. In all conversations I have had with Gordon I have found him to be more than reasonable. Granted we have never tried to "low-ball" him and try to get the "best deal possible". We realize he provides a quality service and if we want that service, we better be willing to pay a reasonable price. That all being said it is always a good policy to respect your provider. I have a lot of respect for Gordon and the business that he runs. Currently we have 3 servers with Incero. Any issues that we did have, which were not many, once they were fixed Gordon has always been more than happy to change our billing date. We delayed Taylor Swift for about a week as we found out the disks that we ordered for SSD caching had some incompatibility with the raid card. Gordon swiftly overnighted drives of our choice which cost more than the original drives configured. I have a few other stories where Gordon has gone above and beyond. Full disclosure @shovenose told me "don't dare coming in there(this thread) and tooting more Incero horn and going on how great they are" However I do what I want and i will speak honestly about the providers I do business with. I do know people have had problems with Gordon, but that has not been my experience.


I have no problem with you posting a positive review. However, when you are trying to justify what they did, it's almost irrelevant.

For example, I like Dynadot as a domain registar; some people hate them. I like Comcast as my home internet provider; some people hate them.

In this case, I hate Incero, and the CatalystHost folks like them. I am not going to convince people that Comcast is America's best ISP (well, they are, but  you get my point)... maybe you've had bad experiences with Comcast, but that doesn't mean everybody has bad experiences.

Even the best hosting provider on the planet has at least one complaint about them somewhere, somebody, sometime wasn't completely happy. Is it a big deal? No, we take what we want from the review and move on.

As I've said several times. Yes, I could have been more professional and patient throughout the ticket - but I do my best to be understanding, patient, professional, and helpful with/to the people I choose to do business with. Heck, I had a bad experience with SingleHop. But did it end like this? No. It ended with me politely informing them the service was not what I expected and I would like a partial refund. Instead, they sent me a completely full refund (more than I'd asked for) and the CEO called me to get my opinion on what they could improve upon. Look at the Incero ticket - more often than not, I said I understand, no problem, sir, please, thank you, I appreciate it. But to be told I should pay somebody to explain the internet to me and the disks on the server are too slow for a speedtest, what the fuck? Gordon was disrespectful to me and thus I was disrespectful in response.

I think what Gordon ended up doing was a bad decision. I usually am very vocal about providers I like and recommend. CatalystHost, NodeDeploy, plenty more, I've sent business to. Would I have recommended Incero until this ending incident? Of course! Now I will never recommend them, if anybody asks me about them, "they suck", and Gordon is out money for overnighting parts for my server, the little bandwidth I did use, and time spent setting up the server.

The easy solution would have been to provide me with proof it was not a network issue, and I would have happily paid that $180/month bill for a long time to come and potentially more servers down the road.


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## Marc M. (Jun 22, 2013)

*@shovenose* seems like an all around bad event and probably the diplomatic approach would be the best to rectify and salvage what can be salvaged - in other words, it's a bad situation, however kind words and a phone conversation should go a long way ;-)

[Edit]

Maybe the title for this topic should be changed to something else. It's really bad for SEO.


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## shovenose (Jun 22, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> Wait, I was reading the shovenose + incero back and forth ticket screencap.
> 
> Ryan was helping shovenose out. Cool
> 
> ...


Thing is, I didn't mind waiting for issues to be fixed, such as BBU, CPU mistake, no problem for me at all. Jordan (who actually called me earlier today when I was wondering if they were ever going to reply) was extremely polite, understanding, and helpful, and seemed to actually care about having me as a customer. Why can't people like him run the company. Gordon should not be dealing with customers. He should be sitting at home jacking off to the profits from his company.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Jun 22, 2013)

> Full disclosure @shovenose told me "don't dare coming in there(this thread) and tooting more Incero horn and going on how great they are"


That pretty much sums up this entire thread quite nicely.

EDIT:



> He should be sitting at home jacking off to chinchilla porn and raking in the profits from his company.


And you couldn't ask for a better topper than that one.  Any chance you had of being taken seriously is now gone.


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## shovenose (Jun 22, 2013)

marcm said:


> *@shovenose* seems like an all around bad event and probably the diplomatic approach would be the best to rectify and salvage what can be salvaged - in other words, it's a bad situation, however kind words and a phone conversation should go a long way ;-)
> 
> [Edit]
> 
> Maybe the title for this topic should be changed to something else. It's really bad for SEO.


The title is perfect. It gets the point across.


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## Marc M. (Jun 22, 2013)

shovenose said:


> The title is perfect. It gets the point across.


*@**shovenose* you know that saying "don't do unto others what you don't want others do unto you"? Believe me, if someone would review you like this you wouldn't like it either. I understand that you may be angry now, however take a minute, feel better, calm down, and just think about it. I am much older than you so I have a clue about what I'm talking about


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## shovenose (Jun 22, 2013)

marcm said:


> *@shovenose* you know that saying "don't do unto others what you don't want others do unto you"? Believe me, if someone would review you like this you wouldn't like it either. I understand that you may be angry now, however take a minute, feel better, calm down, and just think about it. I am much older than you so I have a clue about what I'm talking about


I don't care how old you are.Fact is Incero is not a good choice for a VPS company, unless you take advantage of your good community reputation to toot their horn at every occasion.


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## earl (Jun 22, 2013)

@shovenose

Dude not only did Gordon price match the deal he added more options on top for free!! no questions asked!

I think you haggled/nitpicked him too much and he probably realized it's not a relationship worth keeping..

But yeah there was definitely a lack of professionalism on Gordons part


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## SeriesN (Jun 22, 2013)

And you wonder why people calls you kiddy host? Reselling reseller club is one thing (which is where your "years" of hosting experiences come from and shove host was.nothing but a white label resellerclub reseller), but selling real service and dealing with real provider is another.


Looking back your threads, I would hate to be your provider. Bitching, yes I said the correct word, bitching about providers is one of your biggest issue. Your OVH history, CC drama and now Incero. Who is your next target?



shovenose said:


> Thing is, I didn't mind waiting for issues to be fixed, such as BBU, CPU mistake, no problem for me at all. Jordan (who actually called me earlier today when I was wondering if they were ever going to reply) was extremely polite, understanding, and helpful, and seemed to actually care about having me as a customer. Why can't people like him run the company. Gordon should not be dealing with customers. He should be sitting at home jacking off to the profits from his company.


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## SeriesN (Jun 22, 2013)

Oh,is it! Tell my why so many LEB providers are using incero?



shovenose said:


> I don't care how old you are.Fact is Incero is not a good choice for a VPS company, unless you take advantage of your good community reputation to toot their horn at every occasion.


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## drmike (Jun 22, 2013)

I've been up and down the wall in the past couple of weeks with someone I help with technical aspects of their company.  Their company is basically a helpdesk/call center/outsourced secretary for massive companies and their masses of outsourced work.  Mainly dealing with the big companies and their outsourced labor.

Again and again in lending my experience I am dumbfounded how many companies (middle men companies) are one person miracle shops.  Companies that can't do their paperwork for billing, can't deal with customers or suppliers as expected.  Totally mismanaged, but pumping enough business through the pipeline to survive.

Contemplating opening up a call center for all sorts of folks who are too busy to deal with humans or just simply can't see the wisdom in dealing with them.  

Why?  Heck I know a fellow via the person I help who routinely gobbles rather large project pieces without pay, because the change orders are too much bullshit to deal with and the paperwork ends up meaning he can't get any other work done.  One such change order $3k down the toilet.

Me, I'll do the paperwork for 10% 

Sad what customer support and most human interaction has become these days.

Just yesterday I had a young gal overbill me for retail products --- a mysterious $21.79 charge on my bill at a lawn and garden center (and she didn't bill me for $4 of other products).  Realized it today and went back with a whole paper wrote up and all the math done ready to get it resolved since I frequent the place and like the business.  A woman probably long overdue for retirement was sweet as peaches about it.  She got it in 10 seconds flat.  No bickering, nothing.   That's the difference between the older folks and the young folks I think 

Servers just are losing their sex appeal for me   Problems like @shovenose experienced are way too common.   There was at minimum over $2k of revenue in that one server sale and likely would have been more than that.    It's a significant amount of cash to let walk.


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## Marc M. (Jun 22, 2013)

*@* Those are some very wise words.

*@**shovenose* you will have to eat your pride and look at the bigger picture: your future and your own interests. The diplomatic approach is the best, even if you have to bow down and say you're sorry. Compassion and kindness goes a long way, and more often than not it is returned the same way.


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## drmike (Jun 22, 2013)

marcm said:


> *@* Those are some very wise words.


I forgot one other thing,  while I was waiting at the garden center, a guy in his 50's was checking out (same employee was helping him as I). 

He was thanking the woman for helping him with a recommendation on a simple hand tool.  The one he bought there was mainly plastic and broke quickly and he was returning the product.  Simple matter of poor craftmanship and lousy quality control.  The store there could have claimed neglect, abuse, etc.  but they didn't.  Yes, it cost them money and time and represents a small loss.

But, they converted that bad experience into a satisfied customer who most certainly will be returning in the future and have positive words about their company to their friends, neighbors, co workers, etc.

Businesses need to realize, bad news travels much further and wider than good news.

Rule #1 for Shovenose:   DO NOT MENTION your company to providers.

#2 DO NOT DECLARE your use for the equipment (i.e. provider/reseller)

#3 Price haggling is fine, but be realistic

#4 System burn ins are MANDATORY before loading any customer

#5 Always get the gear you want (especially when it comes to drive controllers)

The other providers you had issues with, yeah, believe me, long line of other folks had similar problems there also.


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## Marc M. (Jun 22, 2013)

*@**shovenose* I think that *@* has some solid advice there for you.

I agree completely!

+1


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## Tactical (Jun 22, 2013)

I'll buy a round this bud for you


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## HostUS-Alexander (Jun 22, 2013)

I would stay well clear of @shovenose


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## GIANT_CRAB (Jun 22, 2013)

HostUS-Alexander said:


> I would stay well clear of @shovenose








Do whatever you want, just don't get caught.


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## TheLinuxBug (Jun 22, 2013)

'marcm said:


> There is no point in badmouthing any company, especially when they don't deserve it. Thanks for the review. I will consider Incero as well for future expansion if they'll provide the same quality of service that they provided for you guys


Seriously dude, you flip flop as much as shovenose does on some things.  I have no grief with you, yet trying to make a point here.  When everyone was all like "Incero sux" here you were to say "If a business person / owner is arrogant and full of himslef, acting in a mysoginistic and hateful manner towards his customers then he doesn't deserve his customers.", an hour later, someone gives them a good review and here you are to say, "I will consider Incero as well for future expansion if they'll provide the same quality of service that they provided for you guys". 

I mean, I get the whole "ohh things were explained and it doesn't really sound like their fault, so I will give them another chance" idea, but seriously, one other person says something good and you are ready to throw money at them?  

I am just busting your balls (pardon the pun) because you have done this in a few different threads and by the end I am always saying to my self, "WTF?!"  Just because some other host likes something doesn't mean you have to change your mind and suck up to them. "Ohh you like that, awesome, now I like it too!"

LOL

P.S. I know the guys at Catalyst  are good people, and I do respect and value Ryan's word because of that, but it is like night and day with you sometimes.

_Edit: meh, did come off a bit mean I suppose, wasn't my point, more so a bit of sarcasm + confusion. _

Cheers!


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## notFound (Jun 22, 2013)

At first I was siding towards @shovenose however I can see why Gordon was tipped over the edge by the ticket. It was actually painful to read, and I'm also a pro at pissing providers off by the way so yeah. If some of the crap earlier on in the ticket was cut out I'm sure Gordon would have helped you a little more later on in the ticket. There are some providers that are just no-BS providers, and they'll get tipped over the edge easily, yes I know from personal experience. ;-)

Perhaps instead of expanding to KVM, @shovenose could have done a bit of playing around with KVM on a spare PC at home.


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## AnthonySmith (Jun 22, 2013)

Stop assuming unmanaged providers should do everything that you do not understand for you!

You could have done so much more troubleshooting and evidence gathering, seriously the list of things you could and should have done is so massive I don't know where to start, instead you did some stupid tests, provided very little information and started bitching and wining like a kid as if they should hold your hand for you.

Grow up or gtfo of this industry you are not ready for it, I am tired of seeing the threads you start make a mockery of an industry I care about.


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## SeriesN (Jun 22, 2013)

AnthonySmith said:


> Stop assuming unmanaged providers should do everything that you do not understand for you!
> 
> You could have done so much more troubleshooting and evidence gathering, seriously the list of things you could and should have done is so massive I don't know where to start, instead you did some stupid tests, provided very little information and started bitching and wining like a kid as if they should hold your hand for you.
> 
> Grow up or gtfo of this industry you are not ready for it, I am tired of seeing the threads you start make a mockery of an industry I care about.


When are you visiting the states? I owe you a lunch and a drink!


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## Awmusic12635 (Jun 22, 2013)

I have a few nodes with incero as well. They have always been great and Gordon is more than willing to go above and beyond.

Incero makes it very well known that their services are unmanaged. They provide the hardware on and the network and you mange your server.

Currently sitting on an Openvz node there with 156 days of uptime. Last time it went down was when corexchange lost power.

Bottom line:

Incero is top notch

Don't BS them

Learn you manage your own servers

And you will be fine.


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## HostUS-Alexander (Jun 22, 2013)

Also, @shovenose . You could pay them 1K for server management.


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## serverian (Jun 22, 2013)

We are also working with incero for the last 2 weeks, (1 week in production). I have nothing but good things to say about Incero.

Gordon can get easily pissed off. Not that I pissed him off but I sensed that so I was very careful when talking with him. The guy deal with lots of people in a single day and when people like shovenose show up and talk shit and complain without providing real evidence, Gordon gets mad and simply chooses not to serve people like shovenose. Which is pretty understandable.

Bottom line, if you are old enough to evaluate people and act accordingly, you cannot have issues with Incero.

I encourage all the good people around to work with Incero. You can't go wrong!


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## wlanboy (Jun 22, 2013)

Looks like a burning bridge. Something I avoid. If I am not happy with the money/service ratio I cancel the service and that's it.


You don't know when you meet someone again. Most of the time you need/want something. One of the usual reasons for that "hey how are you?".


So don't burn a bridge you might have to use in 10 years.


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## shovenose (Jun 22, 2013)

wlanboy said:


> in 10 years.


I'm going to have my own datacenter. Moving on, I think everything that needs to have been said in this thread has been said. Close?


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## atho (Jun 22, 2013)

tl;dr: You can't fix stupid.


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## upsetcvps (Jun 22, 2013)

> Hire a sysadmin to help explain the Internet and networks, or try a forum.

THAT IS AWESOME.  Haha.


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## WelltodoInformalCattle (Jun 22, 2013)

I made some mistakes with my server when I was with Incero which Gordon gratefully helped me out with. The first thing you ought to remember is to try figuring things out by yourself. If you ultimately can't, either get help from someone else who can or be extremely polite when you're requesting your provider to help you out if they can even if it is an unmanaged service.


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## EarthVPN (Jun 22, 2013)

shovenose said:


> I'm going to have my own datacenter. Moving on, I think everything that needs to have been said in this thread has been said. Close?


 Just a simple question.How do you plan to manage a datacenter even you can not manage a server? Do you think people in this industry will trust the name Michael Staake anymore ?


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## HalfEatenPie (Jun 22, 2013)

Ok so I personally was not planning on getting involved in this thread (and I have done only like one moderator action (but will refrain from doing more) for this thread because of obvious reason), but I do have to say something.

If you're an individual who took the time to understand the big picture and presented it in a kind and professional manner, no-one would ever have any issues with you.  This includes making sure you have received the proper server and network you purchased.  When you go in there with about two speedtests and accuse the provider of lying to you, be prepared to have an exchange of support tickets.  

The thing is, and the thing I've learned while working at Catalyst, that many people contacted support with a general tone of deserving.  As if they deserve the best treatment in the world while claiming the company is lying and trying to cheat them out of their own money.  While most of the time the provider does try to bite the bullet and work with them, there's a point where it just gets too ridiculous.  

Now reading the first few tickets everything seems to be going fine, but the ridiculous price haggling obviously shows that shovenose has no real respect to an individual's business plan and they way they operate (and continue their business operations).  Yes people are willing to give you a discount, but demanding more discount on an already discounted product is like asking someone to pay YOU to be their client.  It just doesn't work.  In addition, from my perspective it just seems like shovenose never understood the fact that *once you work with a provider, it's a partnership between both parties.  You're there to deliver your end of the bargain and they're there to deliver theirs.  *From what I can tell, Gordon and Incero has provided their fair share of the agreement (although delayed) but shovenose feels self-entlited to demand more hand-holding.  

Look, your first mistake was the constant price haggling.  When Gordon went "LOL" I laughed pretty hard myself at such a ridiculous counter-offer.  It's clearly apparent you has no respect for the "partnership" you're about to be part of with your provider.  Your second mistake was copy and pasting chat sessions.  They're not there to read your chat sessions, they're there to get the job done and having them read chat logs is just ridiculous.  Reword it and make sure they get the message cross, no matter how small the chat session copy/paste is.  Your third mistake is being back-handed offensive.  Seriously?  "I appreciate you handling the situation in a timely manner (unlike ______ (i'm assuming you said Gordon?) who took two weeks [etc.])".  Really?  This part deserves one of those "are you serious" meme pictures.  And when they finally could not deal with you they made it pretty clear that you are no longer worth the time (which I will admit is in my opinion a bit extreme but at the same time they did deal with you for a while).  

In my opinion, I definitely feel like shovenose is at fault with this one.


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## AnthonySmith (Jun 22, 2013)

^^This is what I wanted to type but was too angry to type


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## Zach (Jun 22, 2013)

tl;dr - RTFM


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## Marc M. (Jun 22, 2013)

*@**HalfEatenPie* I pleaded with him (shovenose) a few times to keep a cool head and use diplomacy to resolve his issue with Incero. I doubt that he will follow my advice.


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## Zen (Jun 22, 2013)

shovenose said:


> Thing is, when something is up and working I leave the provider alone.
> 
> And to GVH-Jon, ColoCrossing is a joke, and not "ideal" for anything. But that's offtopic.


Off topic here, but I would like an explanation as to why ColoCrossing is a joke, and not ideal for anything.

Yes, I am poking the bear, yes I am aware this forum is full of CC haters, but please do explain.


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## WSWD (Jun 22, 2013)

EarthVPN said:


> Do you think people in this industry will trust the name Michael Staake anymore ?


He could always just use another alias...or 3...or 4.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Jun 22, 2013)

Zen said:


> Off topic here, but I would like an explanation as to why ColoCrossing is a joke, and not ideal for anything.   Yes, I am poking the bear, yes I am aware this forum is full of CC haters, but please do explain.


If the service were truly horrible, we wouldn't still be in the NY location.  Network has been stable, and aside from not having native v6 the only issue we've had there wasn't their fault (one of our MBs decided to die off).  That being said, we are rather unhappy about being lied to on several levels (as well as all of the public nonsense), and barring some rather drastic changes on that front we likely won't renew our contract again.

If the drama surrounding them 'secretly' purchasing and running a VPS forum doesn't bother you (I left that place long before any of this occurred, so I could care less), then there's no reason not to do business with them directly.  If you have serious issues with Chris of ChicagoVPS, I would recommend staying away from ColoCrossing:  he either has access to far more information than a client of theirs should, or is a direct puppet with CVPS being their VPS division.

Amusingly enough... 95% of the bad rep CC gets is directly due to him, his actions, and the drama he stirs up.


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## ShardHost (Jun 22, 2013)

We've had issues with CC in the past; however their support and performance have been nothing but stellar.  We first started with them in January 2012


----------



## Zen (Jun 22, 2013)




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## sleddog (Jun 22, 2013)

God what an embarassing thread. Shovehost, I've defended you in the past at LET, but never again.

Mostly what pisses me off in that you launch this "BetterVPS" brand with copious promises, when in fact you don't have a clue what you're doing. It's blatent false advertising. This is the kind of crap that gives the VPS industry a bad name. For god's sake take down the site, remove it from your sig and go away. Get a summer job mowing lawns or something.

After reading your ticket history, I think Incero made one mistake. They should never have provisioned that server.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Jun 22, 2013)

Zen said:


> [...] and wonder whether shovenose has a real, valid reason.


 

I think one would just have to look at some of the 12-year-old commentary in this thread, as well as his current signature, to get an answer to that.



>


----------



## Zen (Jun 22, 2013)

sleddog said:


> God what an embarassing thread. Shovehost, I've defended you in the past at LET, but never again.
> 
> Mostly what pisses me off in that you launch this "BetterVPS" brand with copious promises, when in fact you don't have a clue what you're doing. It's blatent false advertising. This is the kind of crap that gives the VPS industry a bad name. For god's sake take down the site, remove it from your sig and go away. Get a summer job mowing lawns or something.
> 
> After reading your ticket history, I think Incero made one mistake. They should never have provisioned that server.


Heh.

If there's one thing I've learnt quickly from day one - it's how to be a client. Like seriously, if you actually care (I.E run a business and care for it) you tread carefully and learn what you can and cannot do. This thread isn't proof that Shovenose isn't fit for the VPS business, it's proof that he isn't fit for business - at least not right now. It's the unfortunate truth that gives young people in this industry a bad stigma. There are ways to conduct yourself, to know yourself, your position, and how that relates to the people you deal with - and this ticket was one big long list of wrongs in terms of that. 

1. Understand what you can push for, the pricing you tried for was admirable but too cookie cutter - you didn't take into account Incero and their pricing at all. You then had the audacity to ask for a month free - maybe you were misinformed but think for one second, would you give an extremely discounted client a month free, for nothing?

2. Understand who you are to the provider, you are a client, and there are many others - take into account that and not only that but what the position and personality of the business is. As many have agreed, Incero/Gordon run an arrogant ship, that's not always bad. I'm pretty sure like 50% of the successful people I know are very arrogant and that's what gets them places, you can be a nice guy or a bad guy in business, either work. The thing is Incero will find it hard to value you as a client when you not only come across naive but on paper you are already in the negative - lets get this straight, CPU replacement, at least a few irritating questions for Gordon to piss him off, network issues followed by complaints.. and a few other things. From a businesses perspective it's hard to treat someone like they are valuable when all the facts say you are not, and in this case, with him knowing your reputation and the history of the ticket, he gave up. These providers need to make decisions about which clients they are going to go full length with - they will know whether you are going to have 10 servers and low support reqs in 12 months or 2 servers and huge support reqs in 12 months. (its an art!) It makes perfect sense to rip out the weed before it becomes a real problem.

3. Understand what is allowed and not allowed outside of business - your opening of this thread really screwed you over, then you immaturely set your signature to dash out the business-related information and in big red text wrote "INCERO SUCKS" - what do you think that portrays yourself as? It's not professional and it's no excuse to say that you are allowed to convey your personal opinion in such a way, when you are representing a business or even slightly related to that business you should watch your words, goes back to my previous comment about knowing what you can and cannot do.

Sorry if this seems like an essay, but there are even more points I could bring up. Just trying to make the picture clear, this isn't a hosting related problem, this is a business problem. You don't know how to conduct yourself in a business environment - and excuses such as the fact that you are always courteous/bla/bla/bla don't cut it when you back stab that representation the minute something bad happens.


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## MannDude (Jun 22, 2013)

There was a report submitted for this thread with a request to 'clean it up', but I just spent ten minutes skimming it and don't see anything needing cleaned up.

Report direct posts if you feel they need moderated. Otherwise, carry on.


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## HalfEatenPie (Jun 22, 2013)

*@**Zen*, you deserve nothing short of this: http://i.imgur.com/pO8Bzoi.gif

Seriously, bravo.


----------



## Marc M. (Jun 22, 2013)

I think that shovenose treats his business like a hobby, or maybe vps hosting is his hobby. No one who takes business seriously and makes a living from it acts this way. His signature is just silly and speaks volumes about how much he thinks of his own business hobby.


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## jarland (Jun 22, 2013)

I'll second that @Zen. I'll go above and beyond for a client even far beyond what is reasonable. However, when they line themselves up with a clear message that they will be worth none of it, appreciate none of it, and expect no less than it, they will get none of if. When you're polite and respectful, I want your business and I'll work hard to keep it. When you're rude and demanding of that "above and beyond" you will most likely get exactly what you were promised and nothing more. That is how most people do business from what I see.


Now, that doesn't mean I'm not going to go out of my way for someone who is angry or having a bad day. We've all been there. We've all had bad moments. It's not hard to tell the difference between someone who is having a bad day and someone who has 365 bad days a year.


----------



## Zen (Jun 22, 2013)

HalfEatenPie said:


> *@Zen*, you deserve nothing short of this: http://i.imgur.com/pO8Bzoi.gif
> 
> Seriously, bravo.


Well I appreciate it.. and all while exhausted from lack of sleep ^_^

If I might add, I'm not sure of HalfEatenPie's age (I assume young, seen him talk about training to be an civil engineer or such in college), but I would like to comment really quickly that he is a great example at least IMO of how to successfully do what many young people fail at. On LET a while back he would often make jokes most of the time, but he never stepped out of the safe zone (in a good way) and although I don't know him I realized that he started to represent Catalyst a while back and I saw how he very maturely I might add stepped into the position and transitioned perfectly into the perfect representative entity for a business - he has common business sense and a personality that fits, you can tell. Just realized this is another paragraph, when I'm tired I type like crazy!? 





jarland said:


> I'll second that @Zen. I'll go above and beyond for a client even far beyond what is reasonable. However, when they line themselves up with a clear message that they will be worth none of it, appreciate none of it, and expect no less than it, they will get none of if. When you're polite and respectful, I want your business and I'll work hard to keep it. When you're rude and demanding of that "above and beyond" you will most likely get exactly what you were promised and nothing more. That is how most people do business from what I see.
> 
> Now, that doesn't mean I'm not going to go out of my way for someone who is angry or having a bad day. We've all been there. We've all had bad moments. It's not hard to tell the difference between someone who is having a bad day and someone who has 365 bad days a year.


Same type of thing, I have and still do bend over backwards for people that will make me less than a coffee per month not only because I like doing it but because most people are just right. If you expect it, and push for it at every turn - it's likely I will be overloaded and angry, though I may not say anything immediately (that's because I'm British!). If you know your place, however, you will find me doing 4 hours worth of  $30/hour managed work for you at $20/month, because, well, I could afford to, and it makes me happy. 

Obviously you have to have room for that, and that's the position of a business I mentioned earlier - you can run it every way imaginable on the surface, in relation to how much you are charging for the service or product and what you want to provide on top of that. Not sure if Catalyst makes a good markup or not, you probably do, but I wouldn't be surprised if you don't make a great mark up compared to someone like BuyVM (not knocking BuyVM, they run a lean and unmanaged service, opposite of Catalyst from what I can see) but I also wouldn't be surprised if you're happy with that, and that matters.

Okay. I'm done, what the hell. I just go on and on and on when I'm tired. You'de think it'd be the opposite.


----------



## HalfEatenPie (Jun 22, 2013)

Well thank you, that's quite appreciated!  Just for clarification I'm actually 21 and just graduated from my university with a Civil Engineering (focus in Water Resources/Hydrology) degree.  I'll be a masters graduate student next year though at a different university.  While not my main trained work, I definitely appreciate the opportunity Jarland and Ryan gave to me to be part of this industry and have had a blast working with them!  

But not getting off topic...

Shovenose, please review the statements that we have made and reflect on how you're presenting yourselves to others, because it's really hindering yourself and your "brand" more than what you initially intended on (posting wise).  We understand that you're upset but going on this "spree" is not really advisable.  You're as bad as those people who threaten a "bad review" on a forum unless you got a free VPS.


----------



## WelltodoInformalCattle (Jun 22, 2013)

I always assumed shovehost was a running gag, it's a serious business venture?


----------



## drmike (Jun 22, 2013)




----------



## Aldryic C'boas (Jun 22, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> Yeah but that extended delay?  That was CC's fault because they were playing double duty helping CVPS out (based on prior history).


In the interest of fair disclosure... the delay wasn't that bad actually.  And honestly, rather understandable... even if you ignore the whole CVPS==CC thing, you can rationalize is at them trying to save one of their bigger customers that simply did not have the technical expertise to do it on their own.  They put in a bit of their own manpower to make sure that customer could keep paying their bills.  But either way, I imagine things were hectic enough over there.

From what I understand, the office space is offsite, and they have techs go over at regular intervals... that's fine.  The issue that set me off  was the tech posted "Ok, you're fine to go now" and closed the ticket, and the box had no networking at all (regular or the IPMI).  There was later a heat issue, and when Fran mentioned that hit was way too high in the box after they rebuilt it, we got a response of "Nope, everything's fine" (paraphrased obviously) and the ticket closed again.  That's what set me off that night.



> Everyone that is a CC customer, BuyVM included can't argue, they deal with CC because of what they are getting at the low price point they are.  When price is so overwhelmingly blinding, you overlook/ignore many things.


Sure we can :3  While aye, it is a good price... what's important is that NY has pretty much been rock solid since day one.  Hardware failures, DDoS, and issues like that aside, we haven't had any major problems... and that's why we're still there.  If we were paying 500$/mo for our setup there, but there were a couple outages a month?  Gone like the wind....


----------



## drmike (Jun 22, 2013)




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## MartinD (Jun 23, 2013)

This is a thread about Incero, not CVPS or CC. Keep that elsewhere please, buffalooed


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## shovenose (Jun 23, 2013)

MartinD said:


> This is a thread about Incero, not CVPS or CC. Keep that elsewhere please, buffalooed


Actually I really don't mind and it's kinda my thread, so...


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## MartinD (Jun 23, 2013)

Well, no, not really. We do mind though and yeah, it's kinda up to us.


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## mikho (Jun 23, 2013)

shovenose said:


> Actually I really don't mind and it's kinda my thread, so...


This isn't LET.


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## drmike (Jun 23, 2013)

The thread topic wandering, it happens even in normal conversation, unless you interact with robots.

I've never understood why folks care so much about such.  Getting the topic back on topic, well that is self correcting via participation from others.

Now, what I will say is CC is rather popular in the industry as is Incero and Shovenose just went over those two burnt bridges.

Where is the next location in your plan for world domination @shovenose?

(oh yeah and this is my 1000th post)


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## earl (Jun 23, 2013)

Gordon was going to give you free IP's, that must be quite a savings per month no?


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## shovenose (Jun 23, 2013)

MartinD said:


> Well, no, not really. We do mind though and yeah, it's kinda up to us.


I know you're moderator/admin/whatever but I don't see why it should bother you since you've got nothing to do with any of this. I was actually emailing back and forth to Jon Biloh yesterday and was extremely close to buying a server. But, I'm trying to run things more efficiently, and this includes cancelling the BetterVPS brand for now, and this allowed me to ditch a WHMCS license, a Dedicated IP, an entire Dedicated Server, and lots of Rackspace Email. Estimating savings around $400/month which is good.


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## HalfEatenPie (Jun 23, 2013)

shovenose said:


> I know you're moderator/admin/whatever but I don't see why it should bother you since you've got nothing to do with any of this. I was actually emailing back and forth to Jon Biloh yesterday and was extremely close to buying a server. But, I'm trying to run things more efficiently, and this includes cancelling the BetterVPS brand for now, and this allowed me to ditch a WHMCS license, a Dedicated IP, an entire Dedicated Server, and lots of Rackspace Email. Estimating savings around $400/month which is good.


 

We attempt to make sure the thread is on topic, and there have been several reports all from different individuals stating that this thread should remain on topic.  Instead of splitting it up we decided it was best to pop in and request everyone please stay on topic   .  

While yes this is your thread, please understand that we are just trying to make sure this thread doesn't get derailed and to follow the rules.  The rules are in place for a reason you know.      If anyone has any issues with the rules you're more than welcome to open up a thread and ask the community what revisions or changes the rules should go through!  I mean after all, this community is yours.  

But again, please remain on topic!  This CC talk doesn't have much to do with the Incero review!


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## shovenose (Jun 23, 2013)

HalfEatenPie said:


> We attempt to make sure the thread is on topic, and there have been several reports all from different individuals stating that this thread should remain on topic.  Instead of splitting it up we decided it was best to pop in and request everyone please stay on topic   .
> 
> While yes this is your thread, please understand that we are just trying to make sure this thread doesn't get derailed and to follow the rules.  The rules are in place for a reason you know.      If anyone has any issues with the rules you're more than welcome to open up a thread and ask the community what revisions or changes the rules should go through!  I mean after all, this community is yours.
> 
> But again, please remain on topic!  This CC talk doesn't have much to do with the Incero review!


I understand that  After all I'm the first one to be bothered when my thread is derailed.

I do think ColoCrossing has some relevance since they are my only other option in this price range.


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## Zen (Jun 23, 2013)

shovenose said:


> shovenose said:
> 
> 
> > I understand that  After all I'm the first one to be bothered when my thread is derailed.
> ...





shovenose said:


> ColoCrossing is a joke, and not "ideal" for anything. But that's offtopic.


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## drmike (Jun 23, 2013)

shovenose said:


> I do think ColoCrossing has some relevance since they are my only other option in this price range.


 

Well, I think there are more options than Incero and Colocrossing even at the low price point.

I scratch my head when folks think these are the only options.


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## shovenose (Jun 23, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> Well, I think there are more options than Incero and Colocrossing even at the low price point.
> 
> I scratch my head when folks think these are the only options.


I invite you to find me some


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## SeriesN (Jun 23, 2013)

FDC, Datashack, WholeSale, AVANTE? I Don't know. There are too many to even start counting.


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## drmike (Jun 23, 2013)

The biggest thing about another provider offer these days is not seeing such on the same ding-a-ling everyone else has as their networks.

If I were jumping into this industry, I'd be looking in markets that aren't already saturated with every Tom, Dick and Harry offering the same services at the same price points.

I'd stay out of the already abused markets of Los Angeles, Dallas, Chicago, Buffalo and Atlanta.  Yes there are others like Kansas City that are iffy and maybe on the same list.

Sure, people will say those are major hubs and blah blah.   There are tons of lesser tier cities with great networks because they are on transit path and are big places (just not known in this industry where everyone seems to wear blinders).

New York City metro, yeah, underdeveloped on offers.  That metro goes into Pennsylvania and into New England with little latency increase.

VIrginia / DC metro --- few offers there at best and it's excellent networks / connectivity / peering.

Middle of the USA has tons of cities and interest from major companies, but the offers in this sector, blah, not very many.


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## SkylarM (Jun 23, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> The biggest thing about another provider offer these days is not seeing such on the same ding-a-ling everyone else is there networks.
> 
> If I were jumping into this industry, I'd be looking in markets that aren't already saturated with every Tom, Dick and Harry offering the same services at the same price points.
> 
> ...


Where would YOU like to see an offer, and we'll look into it.


----------



## D. Strout (Jun 23, 2013)

SkylarM said:


> Where would YOU like to see an offer, and we'll look into it.


Boston would be *awesome*. Mostly 'cause it's right near me 

In regards to the Incero thing, I think it's perfectly legitimate to dump someone who you feel will be a "problem customer" going forward. Save yourself the headache when there are lots of other people who will be reasonable, thankful customers behind the one that could cause issues.

Not to brag, but I feel I'm a pretty reasonable customer, always trying to keep in mind what makes sense not just for me, but for the provider. And I think partly because of that, I can't say I've ever had a really _bad_ experience with any provider.


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## Tux (Jun 23, 2013)

D. Strout said:


> Boston would be *awesome*. Mostly 'cause it's right near me
> 
> In regards to the Incero thing, I think it's perfectly legitimate to dump someone who you feel will be a "problem customer" going forward. Save yourself the headache when there are lots of other people who will be reasonable, thankful customers behind the one that could cause issues.
> 
> Not to brag, but I feel I'm a pretty reasonable customer, always trying to keep in mind what makes sense not just for me, but for the provider. And I think partly because of that, I can't say I've ever had a really _bad_ experience with any provider.


Boston connectivity is likely going to be backhaul from NYC/DC and at best likely Cogent/Abovenet stuff.


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## Zach (Jun 23, 2013)

Tux said:


> Boston connectivity is likely going to be backhaul from NYC/DC and at best likely Cogent/Abovenet stuff.


And expensive.


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## drmike (Jun 23, 2013)

SkylarM said:


> Where would YOU like to see an offer, and we'll look into it.



Well I was impressed seeing another provider with Columbus, Ohio, recently. Capitol city of Ohio.  State capitols have bandwidth  probably always.

New York city metro certainly, consider.  That includes Philadelphia and nearly all of New England for consideration.

Metro DC.

Western Virginia

Omaha, Nebraska.  

The Dakotas.

Heck, anything "rural" and well outside of major zones of human activity.

Iceland.

Switzerland.

Kentucky or Tennessee.

Any off-site, inside a mountain, inside a mine, inside a buried silo location.


----------



## SkylarM (Jun 23, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> Any off-site, inside a mountain, inside a mine, inside a buried silo location.


Springfield, MO has a datacenter inside an old mine of sorts. Their prices suck bad though.


----------



## Marc M. (Jun 23, 2013)

SkylarM said:


> Springfield, MO has a datacenter inside an old mine of sorts. Their prices suck bad though.


*@**SkylarM* you have a link for them please?


----------



## wdq (Jun 23, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> Omaha, Nebraska.
> 
> The Dakotas.


I'm familiar with a few of datacenters in these areas.

CoSentry is a pretty big company that has datacenters in Omaha as well as some cities in Kansas, South Dakota, and Missouri. 

Binary.net is a much smaller company, but they have a datacenter in Lincoln, Nebraska which is a little ways south of Omaha.


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## drmike (Jun 23, 2013)

SkylarM said:


> Springfield, MO has a datacenter inside an old mine of sorts. Their prices suck bad though.


Yeah, well that operation is a local utility that does everything in Springfield, right?  Telephone, electric, water, natural gas, and the public bus transportation.... right?


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## D. Strout (Jun 23, 2013)

Tux said:


> Boston connectivity is likely going to be backhaul from NYC/DC and at best likely Cogent/Abovenet stuff.






Zach said:


> And expensive.


I thought expensive was why there weren't many providers in NYC?


----------



## SkylarM (Jun 23, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> Yeah, well that operation is a local utility that does everything in Springfield, right?  Telephone, electric, water, natural gas, and the public bus transportation.... right?


They are part of Public Utilities iirc. Don't honestly remember I haven't looked at them in a while.


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## Alec (Jun 23, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> Yeah, well that operation is a local utility that does everything in Springfield, right?  Telephone, electric, water, natural gas, and the public bus transportation.... right?



http://www.springnetunderground.net/

Not sure why you would want to go there though?

It's all going to be homed off MCI (Kansas City).  If I recall there may be some ring protection to STL.

Might as well just go to some place like http://caverntechnologies.com/ where you will have less latency than going down to Springfield.

In either instance you are in the $30 - $45/Mbps price range.

Most people are in the major markets because not only is it less expensive to operate but they have more connectivity options, and better interconnects, etc.


----------



## SeriesN (Jun 23, 2013)

D. Strout said:


> I thought expensive was why there weren't many providers in NYC?


Hello


----------



## Alec (Jun 23, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> Yeah, well that operation is a local utility that does everything in Springfield, right?  Telephone, electric, water, natural gas, and the public bus transportation.... right?



http://www.springnetunderground.net/

Not sure why you would want to go there though?

It's all going to be homed off MCI (Kansas City).  If I recall there may be some ring protection to STL.

Might as well just go to some place like http://caverntechnologies.com/ where you will have less latency than going down to Springfield.

In either instance you are in the $30 - $45/Mbps price range.

Most people are in the major markets because not only is it less expensive to operate but they have more connectivity options, and better interconnects, etc.


----------



## SeriesN (Jun 23, 2013)

Alec said:


> http://www.springnetunderground.net/
> 
> Not sure why you would want to go there though?
> 
> ...


Welcome to VPB boss.


----------



## SkylarM (Jun 23, 2013)

Alec said:


> http://www.springnetunderground.net/
> 
> Not sure why you would want to go there though?
> 
> ...


I just mentioned it because he said anything underground and it made me giggle a little. It's rather unfortunate as they are the only local provider within a decent range of my house ;(


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## D. Strout (Jun 23, 2013)

SeriesN said:


> Hello


I said not _many_, I didn't say not _any_. OFC I know you're in NYC, for very good reason. But aside from you and DigitalOcean, what other low(er) end providers are there?


----------



## SeriesN (Jun 23, 2013)

D. Strout said:


> I said not _many_, I didn't say not _any_. OFC I know you're in NYC, for very good reason. But aside from you and DigitalOcean, what other low(er) end providers are there?


I love DO's control panel. There used to be more provider but since the day internap bought out voxel, well, it became really expensive and tbh we are not everyday Lowend provider . Can't keep with the big boss's like AlFran or KoolJOE!.


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## Zach (Jun 23, 2013)

D. Strout said:


> I thought expensive was why there weren't many providers in NYC?


There was a thread on WHT on why there weren't many service providers in the Boston area.  A friend of mine lives in Revere, MA and has contacted several service providers and received quotes like $500+ for single server colocation.


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## D. Strout (Jun 23, 2013)

SeriesN said:


> I love DO's control panel. There used to be more provider but since the day internap bought out voxel, well, it became really expensive and tbh we are not everyday Lowend provider . Can't keep with the big boss's like AlFran or KoolJOE!.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXn2QVipK2o&t=36


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## SeriesN (Jun 23, 2013)

D. Strout said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXn2QVipK2o&t=36


AHAHAHAHAH!


----------



## drmike (Jun 23, 2013)

Alec said:


> In either instance you are in the $30 - $45/Mbps price range.


 

That's bone headed pricing.  Still looks like an interesting place   Just not the place for low end folks, who they'd probably not like anyways as customers.

It does take a special kind of datacenter to handle the mass IP requests, the abuse issues, the inevitable DDoS attacks and do so for essentially a price that can't even cover professional staff manning the help desk.


----------



## D. Strout (Jun 23, 2013)

SeriesN said:


> AHAHAHAHAH!


Not "idiot", but you get the idea  Seriously, I wish NY/New England was more "densely populated" in terms of providers. I did a search just now on WHT for the thread Zach mentioned. IDK if I found the exact one, but I saw several that show me how expensive it is. Unfortunate  When I become a millionaire I'll subsidize services there


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## Zach (Jun 23, 2013)

D. Strout said:


> Not "idiot", but you get the idea  Seriously, I wish NY/New England was more "densely populated" in terms of providers. I did a search just now on WHT for the thread Zach mentioned. IDK if I found the exact one, but I saw several that show me how expensive it is. Unfortunate  When I become a millionaire I'll subsidize services there


Here ya go


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## SeriesN (Jun 23, 2013)

D. Strout said:


> Not "idiot", but you get the idea  Seriously, I wish NY/New England was more "densely populated" in terms of providers. I did a search just now on WHT for the thread Zach mentioned. IDK if I found the exact one, but I saw several that show me how expensive it is. Unfortunate  When I become a millionaire I'll subsidize services there


I believe URPAD used to have nodes in voxel.


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## D. Strout (Jun 23, 2013)

SeriesN said:


> I believe URPAD used to have nodes in voxel.


Who is/was Voxel? They can't have been that big, all I see about them is press releases about how Internap bought them out.


----------



## Wintereise (Jun 23, 2013)

>Who is/was Voxel? They can't have been that big, all I seem about them is press releases about how Internap bought them out.

Larger than 99% of the companies in their business-sphere.


Was a great provider to work with too, though, that's not to say that Internap is bad either. We have direct stuff with them and everything works the same way anyway.


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## MannDude (Jun 23, 2013)

SeriesN said:


> I believe URPAD used to have nodes in voxel.


They still do, though just 2 or 3. They're true NYC.


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## HalfEatenPie (Jun 24, 2013)

MannDude said:


> They still do, though just 2 or 3. They're true NYC.



I have a dedicated server in NYC.  60 Hudson.  

This is pretty off topic though.  Haha.  I'm being a hypocrite


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## gordonrp (Aug 16, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> I've been a fan of the network at Corexchange.  Incero uses Corexchange's blend plus adds to it their own Cogent (Corexchange has Cogent in their blend already) and nLayer.  nLayer is kind of hit or miss for me elsewhere and blah.  The Corexchange blend is heavy on Level3,  Abovenet and NTT.   I'd take that network over most networks in the US.  *Incero's usage seems to be 46% Cogent,  38% Corexchange and 15% nLayer*, so very different that Corexchange house blend.


Oh dear, let me help here.   

If you get your information from bgp.he.net (as I assume you did) then you need to understand how that site works. It's basically a route collector. That is, it's looking up the routes from their location to our location. As Cogent is the most interconnected network in the world (most AS numbers connected) the cogent path INBOUND to us will appear more often across the internet when looking at possible routes. 

HOWEVER, the number of routes and route options inbound to a provider has nothing to do with which links the provider actually uses to send the data out to it's customers. 

For example, here is a screenshot of our current uplinks, the top graph for each link is a daily graph, the bottom graph is a weekly graph (*BLUE IS OUT* FROM US, *GREEN IS IN* TO US):







So we can see, on the weekly basis:

Corex 10gig uplink outbound 6gbit/second

Cogent 10gig uplink outbound 0gbit/second (NO TRAFFIC SENT OUT, used as failover)

Nlayer 20gig uplink outbound 13.2gbit/second 

=

*40GBIT/SECOND CAPACITY, 19GBIT/SECOND USED, 21GBIT/SECOND SPARE, 0GBIT COGENT USED*

So if you love Corex bandwidth, and you love Nlayer bandwidth, then we have the best of both worlds (plus some added redundancy). Our 20gig nlayer link is made up of 2x 10gig links going out diverse sides of the building, and out corex and cogent links also go out diverse sides from each other.

*Our 40gig (2x 20gig via diverse sides and paths around Dallas) ZAYO/ABOVE.NET link is currently deploying and scheduled to turn up for customers on Sept 1st, bringing us to 80GIG. Then we will without a doubt have the best network offering out of most every provider in Dallas.*

*--------*

As for shovehosts problems. I apologize for not being able to help him.

He was trying to scp (encrpytion) a file to another host with X latency, SCP will typically cap out over any non 5ms link at a crazy low rate. The correct way to test his link would be to use iperf. 

Giving us a download speedtest from softlayer showing good speeds, then an upload to them showing slow speeds just reminds me that they have those old ass pata drives in there writing at 10MB/second. If he had used the frostgaming speed test server or pushed/pulled to cachefly he would have reached full speeds. 

Ultimately we gave him an awesome deal, he said he was going to TEST THE SERVER FIRST (no clients) and then he became a version of R****t C***ke, but we're an unmanaged host for expert users only so I refunded him and cut him loose. Since then I've hired two additional staff to handle support from our datacenter office and will defer such tickets to them.

At some point hopefully we can setup an automated/self-service webpage that schedules an iperf from our network to someone's intended target, so they can test our network outbound without actually having to setup a server.

All customers can reach their 1gbit speeds outbound at any time. 

----------

xoxo

Gordon


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## gordonrp (Aug 16, 2013)

kaniini said:


> 3. Incero is probably not the best choice for people wanting a performance network.  To be frank, there is a rather embarassing thread on WebHostingTalk where he makes claims about nLayer which allegedly do not hold true.  Either way, it shows that his understanding of network engineering is less than it should be at the "running a DC" level.


Sorry, but you don't know anything about anything apparently. Nor do you know anything about the massive problems with nlayer recently. I confirmed the problems with Clint @ ubiquity and a few others who reached out to me and confirmed they had issues too.

http://d.pr/i/cRL4/1MMWdxJG  <--- South to N.E. backbone down, routes didn't auto update for several hours. 4 hour outage.

http://d.pr/i/cqgc/45lHEJwF  <--- packets through our 20gig link blamed to be the cause of problems across their west coast network. If any one single 20gig customer can supposedly impact their entire network then what is it, a bunch of tin cans and string? In reality what I believe happened was nlayer doesn't filter any of their customer ports AGAINST permitted announcements (EDIT: OUTBOUND TRAFFIC/AKA SPOOFED TRAFFIC). This summer an chinese gang has been working to build a large ddos network to attack various sites in China. Nlayer is the shortest route to china for most providers out of the US. Most high bandwidth providers use nlayer. Thus nlayer has a mass of pps attacks that were hard for them to see on their traffic management applications and resulted in a few weeks/months of performance degradation.

 

So I counter your comment about you calling me incompetent when you really don't know jack with:


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## concerto49 (Aug 16, 2013)

Can Incero confirm which Corexchange blend they are on? They have 2 blends. 1 that is with the full list of carriers and one that is reduced.


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## gordonrp (Aug 16, 2013)

concerto49 said:


> Can Incero confirm which Corexchange blend they are on? They have 2 blends. 1 that is with the full list of carriers and one that is reduced.


Full but without Cogent, and always have been. However I believe they had pricing issues with above.net and they moved most of their Above.net traffic over to NTT and keep their above.net and level3 usage very low (gig or so), then they added cogent and HE. This is why we added nlayer and are adding zayo/above.net directly. When their network was mostly above.net it was better than it is today. We've expanded our network at just the right time.


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## drmike (Aug 16, 2013)

So Corexchange house blend is stepping down some (i.e. Cogent + HE)...Growl.

nLayer is just going through some odd sales phase.  Everyone is picking them up now .  Zayo/Above is real good too interesting addition.

Agree about the Corexchange blend being better when mostly Above.net.

Thanks to @gordonrp for sticking around here and clarifying things.  Incero continues to get mentioned all the time for consideration, or folks using them already.  Nice to see busy providers like this gracing us with the presence.


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## RyanD (Aug 17, 2013)

gordonrp said:


> Sorry, but you don't know anything about anything apparently. Nor do you know anything about the massive problems with nlayer recently. I confirmed the problems with Clint @ ubiquity and a few others who reached out to me and confirmed they had issues too.
> 
> http://d.pr/i/cRL4/1MMWdxJG  <--- South to N.E. backbone down, routes didn't auto update for several hours. 4 hour outage.
> 
> ...



nLayer uses standard IRR objects for prefix filters, so yes they do filter announcements.


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## gordonrp (Aug 17, 2013)

RyanD said:


> nLayer uses standard IRR objects for prefix filters, so yes they do filter announcements.


Considering you run some colo space, I would think you know better than to make all assuming comments? We're talking about sending traffic, not announcing spaces.

EDIT: I see in my original post i put "for" instead of "against", I've updated that now.

" In reality what I believe happened was nlayer doesn't filter any of their customer ports AGAINST permitted announcements (EDIT: OUTBOUND TRAFFIC/AKA SPOOFED TRAFFIC)."

No filters in place by Nlayer for outbound traffic (we've since added rpf to each customer vlan)

http://d.pr/i/rdmA/4IxEfyeX


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## gordonrp (Aug 17, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> So Corexchange house blend is stepping down some (i.e. Cogent + HE)...Growl.
> 
> nLayer is just going through some odd sales phase.  Everyone is picking them up now .  Zayo/Above is real good too interesting addition.
> 
> Agree about the Corexchange blend being better when mostly Above.net.


Indeed, we've had a few battles with them behind the scenes, but ultimately things are "OK" when they used to be "GREAT" with their mix. Hence bringing in our own providers. In essence they buy at lower commits so once their "spare" bandwidth from their original operations ran out they started altering the mix with other carriers.


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## gordonrp (Aug 17, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> Thanks to @gordonrp for sticking around here and clarifying things.  Incero continues to get mentioned all the time for consideration, or folks using them already.  Nice to see busy providers like this gracing us with the presence.


Thanks. Just wanted to set straight any misconceptions, as the Internet is always full of rumors (and very few people ever get in touch to clarify things, they'll just believe what they read on forums or through the grapevine).


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## imperio (Aug 17, 2013)

> Oh dear, let me help here.
> 
> *Our 40gig (2x 20gig via diverse sides and paths around Dallas) ZAYO/ABOVE.NET link is currently deploying and scheduled to turn up for customers on Sept 1st, bringing us to 80GIG. Then we will without a doubt have the best network offering out of most every provider in Dallas.*
> 
> ...


Gordon,

How about softlayer dallas and internap dallas upstream provider quality compares to yours ?


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## Patrick (Aug 17, 2013)

[26/10/2012 22:11:41] StormVZ Sales: Do you provide ipv6?

[26/10/2012 22:11:52] Incero: we're about to roll it out next week

[26/10/2012 22:11:56] Incero: our network is ready

 

 

Got this up from last year yet or still telling fibs to your customers?


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## HalfEatenPie (Aug 17, 2013)

Thanks gordonrp for all these awesome clarifications! 

I mean besides for my Catalyst affiliations aside I do use Incero's network for a ton of my personal projects.  I believe Shovenose understood his mistakes later on.  He can't really comment right now though because he's banned (he requested it).


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## gordonrp (Aug 17, 2013)

INIZ said:


> [26/10/2012 22:11:41] StormVZ Sales: Do you provide ipv6?
> 
> [26/10/2012 22:11:52] Incero: we're about to roll it out next week
> 
> ...


Hi Iniz,

Open a ticket and pay the $199 setup fee then you have your free/month IPV6, our network and IPV6 block has indeed been ready since our chat. I don't believe you ever got back in touch? If you want to wait for the self service free IPV6 rollout you may need to wait a little bit longer as it's just not a priority for our devs right now.

Right now we see less than 8gbit/sec of ipv6 traffic on the AMSIX:

http://d.pr/i/UcIc/4pk4IBqH

Compared to 2,000gbit/second for IPV4:

http://d.pr/i/hSHy/XgqMvMWW

So when IPV6 accounts for more than 0.4% of Internet traffic, then I'll start spending more than 0.4% of my time thinking about automating it. Until then we can manually carve your allocation, to date no-one has taken us up on the offer.

IPV6 has been ready since 8/14/2012.



> Net Range: 2604:880:: - 2604:880:FFFF:FFFF:FFFF:FFFF:FFFF:FFFF CIDR: 2604:880::/32 (Direct Allocation) Origin AS: AS174
> AS13354 Net Name: INCERO-LLC Net Handle: NET6-2604-880-1 Parent: NET6-2600-1 Public Comments: http://www.Incero.com Registered Date: 08-14-2012 15:14:49 Last Modified Date: 08-14-2012 15:14:49 RPKI Certified: No



Cheers,

Gordon


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## yolo (Feb 2, 2014)

gordonrp said:


> So when IPV6 accounts for more than 0.4% of Internet traffic, then I'll start spending more than 0.4% of my time thinking about automating it.


Maybe you should spend more of the 96.6% of the time actually knowing your facts about ipv6 adoption and not base all you 'knowledge' on one website.

https://www.google.com/ipv6/statistics.html#tab=ipv6-adoption - 2.49% of the users accessing google.com use ipv6

http://www.akamai.com/ipv6 - Over 300,000 hits per second on an ipv6 address

http://6lab.cisco.com/stats/ - Over 6% of home users have ipv6 in Amerca

I can get you many more links if you would like!


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## Awmusic12635 (Feb 2, 2014)

yolo said:


> Maybe you should spend more of the 96.6% of the time actually knowing your facts about ipv6 adoption and not base all you 'knowledge' on one website.
> 
> https://www.google.com/ipv6/statistics.html#tab=ipv6-adoption - 2.49% of the users accessing google.com use ipv6
> 
> ...


Little late on the reply especially when they are just about to offer IPV6....


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## Damian (Feb 2, 2014)

yolo said:


> I can get you many more links if you would like!


Yes, please get me stats on how many end users have IPv6 only, with no possibility of IPv4 at all.


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## jarland (Feb 3, 2014)

yolo said:


> Maybe you should spend more of the 96.6% of the time actually knowing your facts about ipv6 adoption and not base all you 'knowledge' on one website.
> 
> https://www.google.com/ipv6/statistics.html#tab=ipv6-adoption - 2.49% of the users accessing google.com use ipv6
> 
> ...


You do realize that a lot can change between August and February right...


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## DomainBop (Feb 3, 2014)

jarland said:


> You do realize that a lot can change between August and February right...



Change is the only constant in life.  Thought to ponder: if something is a constant does that mean it never changes?


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## HostingAbove (Feb 4, 2014)

Thanks @gordonrp for stepping in.. Seems there was quite the gang in this thread from earlier on. Regardless, glad to see the client was refunded and the service was resold (i'm assuming from their aggressive WHT promotions). I have not used Incero personally, but from the response times I could see from Gordon himself and his team, they are quite happy to help where they can while still being classed as an "un-managed provider". OP, may I ask who the new provider is that you have joined?

^TG


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## blergh (Feb 4, 2014)

HostingAbove said:


> I have not used Incero personally


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## Wintereise (Feb 4, 2014)

HostingAbove said:


> Thanks @gordonrp for stepping in.. Seems there was quite the gang in this thread from earlier on. Regardless, glad to see the client was refunded and the service was resold (i'm assuming from their aggressive WHT promotions). I have not used Incero personally, but from the response times I could see from Gordon himself and his team, they are quite happy to help where they can while still being classed as an "un-managed provider". OP, may I ask who the new provider is that you have joined?
> 
> ^TG


Completely useless, WHT-style replies are probably not going to fly very well here. Most members try to actively avoid them, and I believe that was half the reason the board was even created.

Just my 2c.


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## Virtovo (Feb 4, 2014)

> *Submitter must have at least 25 posts before submission can become active.*


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## Amitz (Feb 4, 2014)

Oh please. Not those useless WHT replies over here...


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## HostingAbove (Feb 5, 2014)

Oh wow, sorry folks.. I'll try to be less formal in my future replies.. Didn't realize it hurt some of my audience members. All GOOD!  

I just giving the feedback to the OP that it looked like Gord and his team attempted to help him out.. especially with their swift response times.

^TG


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## jarland (Feb 5, 2014)

Amitz said:


> Oh please. Not those useless WHT replies over here...


Did you check the offer forum?


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## josephb (Feb 6, 2014)

HostingAbove said:


> I just giving the feedback to the OP that it looked like Gord and his team attempted to help him out.. especially with their swift response times.
> 
> ^TG


Welcome to 7 months ago.


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## jons (Feb 13, 2019)

Don't walk away from this company (Wable and Incero are the same company), run! The rumors about them simply deleting your data and being complete jerks are absolutely true! I was a customer of theirs for 4 years. During that time, I had some problems. A handful of times, their entire network was down. That' means the entire wable.com site and access to my account (and support tickets) was down. They don't have a phone number in case of emergencies. They don't provide an email address and their last Facebook post was years ago. The last resort was to post something on their Facebook site.

About 1 year into my business with them, they changed their business model and pulled the rug. I went from 3 CPUs and 4GB memory to 1 CPU and 1GB memory. Then they started cranking up the prices. Total bait and switch scheme. If you read some of their terms it seems like you're walking on eggshells. "If you do this, we pull the plug. If you do that, we delete you and ban you." Seriously, how are customers supposed to feel comfortable with a company that threatens to ban you? I should have switched years ago.

The final straw came when my credit card failed to process for a few months. My credit card still works just fine and I use it every day. Wable didn't email me, text me, call me, nothing. They have all of my information to be able to inform me my account had a problem and they would have to delete me. They simply pulled the plug on my VPS. They didn't just pull the plug, they deleted my VPS completely. I asked what the problem with the credit card was and they said "go talk to your credit card company." After I said I never got any emails - no response. Thankfully there are much better companies and services out there.

So, I took my business to a competitor and I've never been happier. I should have done it long ago. Faster network, 10x better interface, better services, an actual effing phone number and customer support who responds within minutes if I have a question. Wable or Incero might be fine to just play around for a month and soak up some bandwidth, but after switching, I can say there's literally no reason for the hassle. Just use a better company from the start and you'll be much happier. There is a reason Wable and Incero are not compared to bigger companies. In the past 5 years they've not managed to get their act together.


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