# Thinking about not using paypal.



## coreyman (Apr 18, 2014)

Do any of you currently not use paypal at all? Did you once use paypal and then stop? Did that cause you to lose any business?

I'm asking because I'm sick of the paypal resolution process - they pretty much 'hide' the resolution that they(paypal) decide on unless you strictly stay on top of it and go look at all the past 15 day resolutions one by one and write them down. I tried to get a report of cases and it just says 'Case Closed'. I looked at a case one time and a customer that SHOULD NOT have got a refund (an abusive customer) ... they gave him a refund >.>


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## jhadley (Apr 18, 2014)

I'm also thinking about ditching Paypal. I spoke to Elavon yesterday and the rates are better, clearing time is faster, they don't push your customers to sign up for an account if they don't want to etc etc.

It would be interesting to hear from those for whom no Paypal is a deal breaker.


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## Damian (Apr 18, 2014)

coreyman said:


> I tried to get a report of cases and it just says 'Case Closed'.


Call your rep (you do have a rep, right?) directly and discuss this with them. You can also discuss the kinds of resolutions available; Paypal defaults to giving the customer back their money, which doesn't work for low-margin businesses. If you talk shop with your rep and stress that you're not in it to steal money, you'll be surprised that things now work in your favor.


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## Lee (Apr 18, 2014)

Whilst Paypal is not perfect they are usually quite decent if you get in touch with them by phone and talk through a dispute instead of relying on the system to decide, which is often the case, you may think someone looks at all disputes but they don't, they have a strategy manager in the background that works on probability and likelihood rather than fact.

You need to consider what % of your client base use Paypal.  Whether that be 5% or 50% only you can decide what the impact would be if a significant portion then cancelled their service as a result.  There is a growth in the use of Paypal though, people simply don't want to give online business their card details and in hosting you can't blame people with all the events in the past relating to panel exploits and so on.

If you have a reliance on WHT/LET type business then I doubt you would want to remove Paypal as it's in my experience the biggest payment processor from these type of customers.


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## SkylarM (Apr 18, 2014)

I'd say about 90% of our payments are done via Paypal, with 10% going via Credit/Debit payments using Braintree. We typically end up with far less issues with our paypal based payments than we do with credit card transactions. There is a huge crowd of people that will use paypal like a bank account, and would prefer to use paypal funds to pay for things than to give a provider their card information. 

As Lee mentioned, I always call in for disputes. Get them closed in my favor 98% of the time in 5 minutes or less.


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## coreyman (Apr 18, 2014)

Thanks for all of the advice and no @Damian I do not have a rep.


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## Damian (Apr 18, 2014)

Skylar and Lee summed up what I was trying to say (i r not teh good @ inglesh):

-If you resolve the dispute online, you're going to lose your money.

-If you resolve the dispute by calling PP, there's an extremely good chance you'll keep your money.


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## datarealm (Apr 18, 2014)

We fought adding paypal payments for a long time before caving in (years ago now of course).  Over the past 2-3 years we have had an accelerating number of clients switching from direct card payments over to paypal.  At this point it would be really hard to forgo paypal as an option.  Which of course is a bummer as you said Elavon has far lower fees (we use them and in our comparison shopping they were far and away the lowest cost processor).

Chargebacks and dispute resolution is unfortunately a cost of doing business and will follow you no matter how you accept payments unless you switch to cash only. (Even checks can be cancelled and bounced.)  Run your business professionally, track your client correspondence, and be polite anytime you request assistance from your processor (be it paypal or anyone else).


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## Aldryic C'boas (Apr 18, 2014)

If you are receiving enough chargebacks and disputes for it to be such a major concern.. perhaps it's time to stop assuming the problem is with the clients, and determine instead what you're dropping the ball on to make that many people unhappy.


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## willie (Apr 18, 2014)

As a user (not a seller), I try to avoid Paypal and always want to use a direct credit card if I can, or am happy to pay by money order (guaranteeing that the seller gets the money).  I'm not personally a Bitcoin user but am ok with it in principle.  Why does anyone use Paypal as an alternative bank account, unless they can't get a real one?  And if they can't get a real one, how likely are they to be a solid customer?


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## TruvisT (Apr 18, 2014)

Aldryic C said:


> If you are receiving enough chargebacks and disputes for it to be such a major concern.. perhaps it's time to stop assuming the problem is with the clients, and determine instead what you're dropping the ball on to make that many people unhappy.


Lowend VPSes bring in a lot of abuse hoppers as well. Switch to highend market, more money, less stress, no problems... ever.


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## pcan (Apr 18, 2014)

willie said:


> Why does anyone use Paypal as an alternative bank account, unless they can't get a real one?


I started to use paypal for buying VPS services because one of my regular credit card got suspended twice after a payment: the card issuer does flag this kind of transactions as high risk. Paypal is cheaper and more convenient than a prepaid card, and EUR/USD conversion rate is better too.


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## nunim (Apr 18, 2014)

Honestly I can't see running an online business, at least in the English speaking world, that doesn't accept PayPal.  Almost everyone already has a PayPal account these days and there's no way I would trust some LEB provider to process my credit card directly.


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## willie (Apr 18, 2014)

nunim said:


> Honestly I can't see running an online business, at least in the English speaking world, that doesn't accept PayPal.  Almost everyone already has a PayPal account these days and there's no way I would trust some LEB provider to process my credit card directly.


By direct credit card I guess I misspoke, I just meant I use my credit card directly in the host's invoice page without having to enroll another account with some intermediary like Paypal.  With smaller providers this type of payment is usually handled by a payment handler like Stripe or even Paypal, and the handler is the form target for the card number, so the VPS host never sees the card number.  If it's a bigger company that has a merchant CC account (e.g. Amazon) then I'm generally fine using it.


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## hellogoodbye (Apr 18, 2014)

I try to use Paypal instead of credit card when purchasing online wherever possible. If I don't see it being offered as a form of payment, I usually ask myself: How much do I trust this vendor with my personal information, and is it worth using my credit card for?

I've only used my credit card online a handful of times and usually either at big companies (Amazon, Staples, etc.) or for educational/work reasons (renewing my license, applying for an online course). I also sell off some older possessions - mostly things from past hobbies - on the side so I pretty much always have an existing Paypal balance that I can use for small purchases.

For something like a low end VPS, regardless of how good a rep the company has around these parts I would still prefer to use Paypal. If that's not offered as a payment, I'll simply move on regardless of how good the deal is.

EDIT: Forgot to add this-- before I got a credit card, the only way I could make purchases online was to use Paypal by connecting it with my bank account and either sending e-checks or transferring money from the bank. I'm from Canada and use TD Canada Trust; it didn't have a visa debit card available until the past year or so, which meant their debit cards were only usable in stores and ATMs.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Apr 18, 2014)

TruvisT said:


> Lowend VPSes bring in a lot of abuse hoppers as well. Switch to highend market, more money, less stress, no problems... ever.


It has very little to do with being 'LowEnd', and much more to do with being a 'host-from-a-box' that doesn't do proper QC on new signups.  If you let "Abc Abc" of "123 Fake st" sign up without a second thought, you're going to get abuse no matter what your price point is.

Just to put things into perspective - for years we were _the_ "low-end" (back when that meant low spec, not low quality - who do you think everyone copied the 15$/yr plans from?), and I would *maybe* see 2-3 client-initiated disputes a year.  The pricepoint/market/<other excuse here> isn't the problem - a 'provider' thinking that using WHMCS means he doesn't need to actually audit his business is the problem.


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## nunim (Apr 18, 2014)

hellogoodbye said:


> ... Forgot to add this-- before I got a credit card, the only way I could make purchases online was to use Paypal by connecting it with my bank account and either sending e-checks or transferring money from the bank. I'm from Canada and use TD Canada Trust; it didn't have a visa debit card available until the past year or so, which meant their debit cards were only usable in stores and ATMs.


This is something I've learned since I moved to Canada, aside from the universality of chip & pin, almost all debit cards that I've seen are true debit, not the more common debit/credit that I was used to in The States (as Canadians call it).

 Those handheld card readers that restaurants are quite handy, I'm not sure why they haven't caught in the USA, as restaurants are another place that I don't necessarily trust alone with my CC info.

*Back on topic*:  If you run an Online business and you're targeting English speaking consumes, you NEED to accept PayPal, not doing so is crazy unless you only deal with businesses. If you don't have a PayPal account, your can always pay with your creditcard via PayPal, at least you know who's processing your information instead of just entering the information into a WHMCS checkout page.


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## HostXNow (Apr 23, 2014)

Probably not a good idea to drop Paypal... they're even being advertised on TV now.


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## Tom_WebhostingUK LTD (Apr 23, 2014)

I have been using Paypal for many years and haven't faced any issues yet. According to me, it is the most secured and recommended payment gateway to us.


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## HH-Josh (Apr 25, 2014)

As others have said, I don't think anyone dropping PayPal as a payment gateway would be a good idea. I think more and more people are getting used to using PayPal rather than having to use their bank account details - especially in the within hosting industry.


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## coreyman (Apr 25, 2014)

Aldryic C said:


> It has very little to do with being 'LowEnd', and much more to do with being a 'host-from-a-box' that doesn't do proper QC on new signups.  If you let "Abc Abc" of "123 Fake st" sign up without a second thought, you're going to get abuse no matter what your price point is.
> 
> Just to put things into perspective - for years we were _the_ "low-end" (back when that meant low spec, not low quality - who do you think everyone copied the 15$/yr plans from?), and I would *maybe* see 2-3 client-initiated disputes a year.  The pricepoint/market/<other excuse here> isn't the problem - a 'provider' thinking that using WHMCS means he doesn't need to actually audit his business is the problem.





Aldryic C said:


> If you are receiving enough chargebacks and disputes for it to be such a major concern.. perhaps it's time to stop assuming the problem is with the clients, and determine instead what you're dropping the ball on to make that many people unhappy.


Well actually I was auditing my income and expenses for 2013 and the ratio of people doing chargebacks on paypal was higher than 2checkout last year.

I handle all of the disputes and 80% of the time the client is being unreasonable - paypal gave the money back when they shouldn't have. If someone is suspended for abuse they usually open a paypal dispute.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Apr 25, 2014)

coreyman said:


> I handle all of the disputes and 80% of the time the client is being unreasonable - paypal gave the money back when they shouldn't have. If someone is suspended for abuse they usually open a paypal dispute.


I've _rarely_ seen someone that would open a dispute be reasonable - if they were, the issue could've been resolved before things were that far along.

You're selling intangible goods - if you're losing those disputes, then you're doing something horribly wrong.  And if you have enough 'abuse' and disputes that it's that serious of a concern - again, you should spend some time figuring out why these issues occur, rather than putting fault on PayPal, who has no bearing on your business model.

Five+ years handling billing for Fran, over 10k active clients;  we've only lost three legitimate disputes.  And in each of those 'losses', it was a fault on our end, and I initiated a refund for the client once the issue was investigated.  You shouldn't be having that many disputes to begin with, let alone losing enough of them to be hurting your income.


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## coreyman (Apr 25, 2014)

Aldryic C said:


> I've _rarely_ seen someone that would open a dispute be reasonable - if they were, the issue could've been resolved before things were that far along.
> 
> You're selling intangible goods - if you're losing those disputes, then you're doing something horribly wrong.  And if you have enough 'abuse' and disputes that it's that serious of a concern - again, you should spend some time figuring out why these issues occur, rather than putting fault on PayPal, who has no bearing on your business model.
> 
> Five+ years handling billing for Fran, over 10k active clients;  we've only lost three legitimate disputes.  And in each of those 'losses', it was a fault on our end, and I initiated a refund for the client once the issue was investigated.  You shouldn't be having that many disputes to begin with, let alone losing enough of them to be hurting your income.


Well it was over a grand out in disputes last year... and it just sickens me that some of these people won the disputes when they shouldn't have. I guess I should call paypal for every dispute like others suggested.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Apr 25, 2014)

Dude, a _GRAND_ in disputes?  That's absolutely insane.

You're completely missing the point here, though - the problem isn't that you're losing some of the disputes.  The problem is that you have that _many_ in the first place.



Aldryic C said:


> If you are receiving enough chargebacks and disputes for it to be such a major concern.. perhaps it's time to stop assuming the problem is with the clients, and determine instead what you're dropping the ball on to make that many people unhappy.


Seriously - instead of worrying about PayPal right now, start figuring out why you have so many unhappy clients.  Fix the root of the problem, and your disputes will go away.


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## coreyman (Apr 25, 2014)

Aldryic C said:


> Dude, a _GRAND_ in disputes?  That's absolutely insane.
> 
> You're completely missing the point here, though - the problem isn't that you're losing some of the disputes.  The problem is that you have that _many_ in the first place.
> 
> Seriously - instead of worrying about PayPal right now, start figuring out why you have so many unhappy clients.  Fix the root of the problem, and your disputes will go away.


It seems that I just attract abuse and spammers, I've already hinted at the fact that most all of our disputes were opened after the client was suspended for abuse. I don't know what else you want me to say? I've got maxmind rolling on our site and the 'orders' page in WHMCS is constantly 40% filled with 'Fraud' attempts.


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## concerto49 (Apr 25, 2014)

coreyman said:


> It seems that I just attract abuse and spammers, I've already hinted at the fact that most all of our disputes were opened after the client was suspended for abuse. I don't know what else you want me to say? I've got maxmind rolling on our site and the 'orders' page in WHMCS is constantly 40% filled with 'Fraud' attempts.


Manually review some orders - fake address, same guys ordering with different names - all sorts of things to look out for. Block the offending domains in WHMCS so they don't come back in another form.

Use FraudRecord.

There are lots of things to do. Once you stop a few gangs, they learn and know you're not a good target.

Low prices are another reason.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Apr 25, 2014)

Maxmind and WHMCS are tools - just like a jigsaw, sloppy and dangerous unless you've taken the time to learn how they work.

The best advice I can give you, is to _never_ fully rely on automation, and always be wary of third party tools.  You should be using Maxmind to stop blatant fraud - open proxies, known dirty IPs, excessive distance from given addresses, etc.  There will always be false positives;  take the time to actually go through the fraud orders.  Reach out to the ones you feel to be legit, let them know you've cleared the flags and they can proceed with payment.

Likewise, actually take the time to look at your paid orders.  Is the contact information legit?  Are they using someone else's PayPal/etc?  Did they give a fake or non-residential address (you'll get folks trying to give you the address of UPS and other public buildings)?  If you're provisioning any order that gets by Maxmind, then you can't claim to be surprised when "Bob Smith" of "123 Fake St, Mississippi" who connected from an Indonesian ISP causes problems.


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## coreyman (Apr 25, 2014)

Aldryic C said:


> Maxmind and WHMCS are tools - just like a jigsaw, sloppy and dangerous unless you've taken the time to learn how they work.
> 
> The best advice I can give you, is to _never_ fully rely on automation, and always be wary of third party tools.  You should be using Maxmind to stop blatant fraud - open proxies, known dirty IPs, excessive distance from given addresses, etc.  There will always be false positives;  take the time to actually go through the fraud orders.  Reach out to the ones you feel to be legit, let them know you've cleared the flags and they can proceed with payment.
> 
> Likewise, actually take the time to look at your paid orders.  Is the contact information legit?  Are they using someone else's PayPal/etc?  Did they give a fake or non-residential address (you'll get folks trying to give you the address of UPS and other public buildings)?  If you're provisioning any order that gets by Maxmind, then you can't claim to be surprised when "Bob Smith" of "123 Fake St, Mississippi" who connected from an Indonesian ISP causes problems.


I agree and I do take measures on orders I think are fraud and orders I think should have gotten through the automated fraud system.


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## RLT (Apr 26, 2014)

Maxmind hates my phone. Any order gets marked as fraud. The IP shows as PA when I'm in OH.


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## splitice (Apr 26, 2014)

Blocking TOR exit nodes is probably the best single thing you can do, atleast from my experience.

But disputes of that magnitude... I'm surprised its taken this long for you to jump on it.


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## markjcc (May 1, 2014)

What you can do instead of dropping paypal is to get a third party payment solution such as 2Checkout which processes paypal payments and deposits/ sends a check into your bank account


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## kunnu (May 2, 2014)

Filter orders and accept orders only from verified accounts and If name/address does not match with client area details then immediately refund money and reject order.

1. Use Fraud Records (Report order If they open a dispute and check every orders with FraudRecords)

2. Maxmind - Do not accept order If distance from IP and billing location is longer then xyz km.

3. Add a note in your PayPal account so when your customer try to open a dispute, they will read your message(you can ask them in message to email me or contact me and I will refund your money,etc.. and give them your emergency email address/phone number.)


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## zionvps (May 8, 2014)

Paypal may not be perfect, but still it is a good choice due to many reasons.

First of all, about 50% of the potential clients would be using paypal, it is kind of industry standard.

Second, it helps startup hosts to operate due to their easy verification policy and 0 setup fees.


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## switsys (May 8, 2014)

coreyman said:


> Well it was over a grand out in disputes last year...


WTF!? I've never even heard of anything like this.



coreyman said:


> I've already hinted at the fact that most all of our disputes were opened after the client was suspended for abuse.


How on Earth can you lose that many disputes, if suspensions are legitimate?


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## coreyman (May 8, 2014)

switsys said:


> WTF!? I've never even heard of anything like this.
> 
> How on Earth can you lose that many disputes, if suspensions are legitimate?


idk that's why I was thinking about dropping paypal.


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## switsys (May 8, 2014)

coreyman said:


> idk that's why I was thinking about dropping paypal.


Yeah, but that would be economic suicide.


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## jvkz (May 14, 2014)

Buyer trust more in paying with PayPal more then paying with credit card... End of story


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## LusoVPS (May 17, 2014)

Aldryic C said:


> It has very little to do with being 'LowEnd', and much more to do with being a 'host-from-a-box' that doesn't do proper QC on new signups.  If you let "Abc Abc" of "123 Fake st" sign up without a second thought, you're going to get abuse no matter what your price point is.


I agree. Even if maxmind doesn't detect this, we do make a manual validation on every payment/order to avoid abuse at max.


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## InertiaNetworks-John (May 19, 2014)

Personally, it would be a lot easier if everyone used CC, but people like their PayPal, so that is what we offer!

PayPal subscriptions are a pain in the rear.


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## HostNIT (May 22, 2014)

coreyman said:


> Do any of you currently not use paypal at all? Did you once use paypal and then stop? Did that cause you to lose any business?
> 
> I'm asking because I'm sick of the paypal resolution process - they pretty much 'hide' the resolution that they(paypal) decide on unless you strictly stay on top of it and go look at all the past 15 day resolutions one by one and write them down. I tried to get a report of cases and it just says 'Case Closed'. I looked at a case one time and a customer that SHOULD NOT have got a refund (an abusive customer) ... they gave him a refund >.>


If you feel that a customer is a possible Fraud Case or may possibly try to cheat you{just being blunt} then I'd recommend having them sign an Authorization Form. I don't know if I can link to a sample on here, but the Authorization form will give you a better chance at winning your case.  I really wouldn't recommend giving up PayPal because it's really widely used and everything that dishonest customers do on PayPal they can do with any other payment processing system. You can PM me for more information on how to protect yourself.


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## markjcc (May 28, 2014)

Try a third party payment processor such as 2Checkout or something similar.


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## clouds4india (Jun 3, 2014)

paypal is best in terms of flexibility and reliability it has never been down only draw backs are seller protection since our business involves digital goods which cant be verified we are at a disadvantage incase a client files a dispute

Either way 2checkout is good too


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## coreyman (Jun 3, 2014)

To all of you suggesting 2Checkout - I'm already using this right with paypal for people that do not want to use paypal. I decided to keep paypal simply because like most of you said - people trust it.


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## Schultz (Jun 4, 2014)

Paypal is a great platform, internationally accepeted, close to no downtime & flexible for both buyers & sellers.

2Checkout is the only thing that could probably come close to paypal in terms of what I've said above. Corey, have you looked into Bitcoin and such? No fees, instant & very reliable.

Cheers,

Boxode


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## coreyman (Jun 4, 2014)

Boxode said:


> Paypal is a great platform, internationally accepeted, close to no downtime & flexible for both buyers & sellers.
> 
> 2Checkout is the only thing that could probably come close to paypal in terms of what I've said above. Corey, have you looked into Bitcoin and such? No fees, instant & very reliable.
> 
> ...


The only problem with bitcoin is the fluxuation to real money.


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## splitice (Jun 4, 2014)

BitPay. Paid in the amount your charge in the currency of your choice.


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## W3Space (Jun 12, 2014)

Paypal bad


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## nunim (Jun 12, 2014)

For people using bitpay, what's the percentage of payments done via BTC vs PayPal?

I would assume it's quite low, less than 10%, unless you aggressively market to the BTC community, especially now that BTC has crashed and the hype has died down.

I still think it's stupid for an online business targeting the English speaking market not to accept PayPal.


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## JFSG (Jun 13, 2014)

Sometimes, we just have to "suck it up". Dropping PayPal will definitely hurt business since it is the most popular channel for online payments. Until they have a strong competitor fighting for their marketshare, PayPal will be indispensable.


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## Schultz (Jun 14, 2014)

especially now that BTC has crashed and the hype has died down.

Well I wouldn't really say that.


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## splitice (Jun 14, 2014)

Approximately 10% of payments come through Bitpay for us. We haven't overly advertised it. With Bitcoin most payments are greater than $50 as well, most Paypal payments are less that that.

We support the Payza gateway which gets far less usage.


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## RobertM (Jun 20, 2014)

You're going to have issues with any payment plan you've got.  Paypal is good, as others have said, if you give them a call and talk to a representative directly.  I've been using Paypal for years, and yes, I have had my downsides to them, but a large sum of clients/potential clients are using Paypal and without the option of paying, you'll be losing a large sum of clients.

I'd recommend getting a good friend at Paypal (be friendly with a certain rep) and once you've got one that will help you with your issues, life will be much easier.  In the hosting industry you're going to lose and keep money, that's an obvious fact.  Sometimes you're going to lose more than other with one payment, the key is, to look at how much money/clients are actually coming from that payment option.  I personally wouldn't go without Paypal unless it was critical.


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## shovenose (Jun 21, 2014)

I would be interested to know what providers here have their MaxMind set at - I have had orders that passed MaxMind and have looked completely legit even after some research and poking around, but then check in FraudRecord and they have tons of complaints.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Jun 21, 2014)

I would be interested to know the recipe for Popeye's Biscuits.  Or the rolls at Logan's Roadhouse.  Perhaps for Jack Daniel's iced tea as well.

I always have to stop and do a double-take when someone underhandedly begs for confidential information.  Or when people straight out ask "Hey, that's a nifty feature you offer, how do I set that up for my company?".


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## Francisco (Jun 21, 2014)

shovenose said:


> I would be interested to know what providers here have their MaxMind set at - I have had orders that passed MaxMind and have looked completely legit even after some research and poking around, but then check in FraudRecord and they have tons of complaints.


Honestly maxmind settings are unique to every company since it's based entirely around what kind of customers you're bringing in. Maxmind's DB is great for some places but complete trash in others.

Francisco


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## Sam (Jun 21, 2014)

I would personally stick with PayPal because:

1) People often keep a certain balance in the PP account.

2) Customers trust Paypal.

3) PayPal has low fees compared with other payment processors.


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## cspacews (Jun 22, 2014)

PayPal a trusted payment processor world-wide now and preffered choice.

We are running on PayPal only as matter of Online Payment,Haven't felt to have lost any business.


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## sz1hosting (Jun 24, 2014)

I have looked into this quite deeply i found "worldpay uk" do fraud protection and chargeback protection sent them a email no reply yet will ring them soon and see what they say!


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## Srvify (Jun 27, 2014)

Honestly not being a fan of PayPal I feel it would be detrimental to any online business not to accept it. They are to widely used and trusted. It sounds like you have already made your decision but we feel offering at least a secondary option is also a smart business decision.


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## Benelux Servers (Jun 29, 2014)

Don't do that. I mean do not go with another gateway this will cause you loss. People prefer PayPal usually over others. If you want to win those disputes call them.


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## BlaZe (Jun 30, 2014)

Major of our clients pay through paypal. I wanted to ditch it too.

I'm getting good response by accepting BitCoin as payment although you need to cash out quickly.


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## S-Jack (Jul 21, 2014)

I looked at using 2checkout but I read somewhere they might be closing... It's a tough market atm with billing systems & payments-



TruvisT said:


> Lowend VPSes bring in a lot of abuse hoppers as well. Switch to highend market, more money, less stress, no problems... ever.


Less clients with the highend market


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## TruvisT (Jul 21, 2014)

S-Jack said:


> Less clients with the highend market


More or less. More or learning and shifting their budgets higher. They know more and require less help. Less tickets means less issue and less money spent and more made from the clients so in the end it pays off.


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## RockTBN (Jul 22, 2014)

Hello,

Just would like ask how do you guys prevent chargeback payments? We have had some bad customers, they made the payment via Paypal by Bank/eCheck then do a chargeback after the contract is over and we lose the disputes.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Jul 22, 2014)

You should be asking PayPal that.  Every case is situational, and as they know the details of the disputes, they are in the best position to educate you.


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## pravint (Jul 24, 2014)

It happened with me many times, After using our service 10-15 days they make unauthorize payment dispute and paypal give the money to client. I am so angry with them.

I suggest my client to pay via Webmoney. It is better to use.


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## peetscott (Jul 25, 2014)

Paypal can be a hard dick... Sometimes you even get depressive from Paypal  ( Scammer who chargesbacks afterwards,... )

I am using BitPay it just works fine


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## reckless (Aug 5, 2014)

willie said:


> As a user (not a seller), I try to avoid Paypal and always want to use a direct credit card if I can, or am happy to pay by money order (guaranteeing that the seller gets the money).  I'm not personally a Bitcoin user but am ok with it in principle.  Why does anyone use Paypal as an alternative bank account, unless they can't get a real one?  And if they can't get a real one, how likely are they to be a solid customer?


I have a Business Paypal account and a bank account but I almost always use Paypal for online transactions so that way I don't have to give up my debit or credit cards numbers (I've had my info stolen online before via stores online that were hacked and it's no fun at all)...Paypal is also very good at getting my money back and handling things like that (even more so then my bank!)...not to mention Paypal also gives business/premier accounts debit cards now that you can have to easily withdraw from your Paypal account.

I've been using Paypal for over 12 years and they have always treated me well especially if you call them up and talk to them.


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## jamaica (Aug 12, 2014)

we've got no problems with paypal till we dont want to recieve payments from bussiness accounts. Now it's the problem cause our client with bussiness accounts cant send payment to our bussiness account. Transactions between bussines accounts are forbidden


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## SkillerzWeb (Aug 13, 2014)

Well if you got a worthy alternative for paypal for sure you can drop it.. But still its the top payment gateway.


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## BrianHarrison (Aug 28, 2014)

The dispute resolution process with PayPal is frustrating. I imagine it's frustrating for the buyer as well. For the payment of hosting services it basically comes down to:

1. If the buyer opens the dispute as an "unauthorized transaction" they will win automatically. The seller must call in to get the issue resolved correctly.

2. If the buyer opens the dispute as "not as described", "internally damaged", etc then the seller will automatically win.

After speaking at length with various PayPal supervisors, I've learned that unless there is a tracking number involved, there is very little manual human review that goes into settling PayPal disputes.


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## MeanServers (Sep 1, 2014)

I think PayPal is a necessary evil unfortunately. I really hate their resolution process but at the same time, it's not much worse than using a merchant account. Possibly even easier when it comes to certain disputes, not all. We started using Stripe as an alternative to PayPal and most of our new clients are split 50/50 between PayPal and Stripe. I think until someone else comes along and shakes up the online payment industry, we as hosts will be stuck offering PayPal (even if it isn't a primary gateway) for the foreseeable future.


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## msp - nick (Sep 4, 2014)

S-Jack said:


> I looked at using 2checkout but I read somewhere they might be closing... It's a tough market atm with billing systems & payments-
> 
> Less clients with the highend market


I highly doubt 2checkout will ever close.

They're expensive, but they're also a good platform to have aside from PayPal.


We're using Skril, WU, PayPal and bank transfer.


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## ftpitnipon (Sep 4, 2014)

just a quick tip to win disputes against abusive customers,write intangible item and intagible item as many times as possible,then try to send them proof screenshots about the customer

I have won almost 90% (100% for the last 2 months) of the cases by this method


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## ftpitnipon (Sep 4, 2014)

BrianHarrison said:


> The dispute resolution process with PayPal is frustrating. I imagine it's frustrating for the buyer as well. For the payment of hosting services it basically comes down to:
> 
> 1. If the buyer opens the dispute as an "unauthorized transaction" they will win automatically. The seller must call in to get the issue resolved correctly.


This is not true.I have won against a spammer a few days ago even after he created "unauthorized transaction"

How you can convince the matter to paypal ,that matters most+plus the magic word "intangible item"


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## MeanServers (Sep 5, 2014)

Ironically enough, we had a dispute through PayPal the other day with a spammer we terminated and used those magic words, intangible item. In 24 hours the dispute was closed and founded in our favor. Maybe this really is the fast track way of winning disputes with PayPal?


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## Jasson.Pass (Sep 8, 2014)

Ive always hated paypal charge backs and the $20 fees really make $1/mo services even more annoying


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## jamaica (Sep 9, 2014)

Never had any problems with paypal. Disputes? Ok, I will lost my 4$ with help of some dumb guy, but I will get a lot more with normal customers.


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## TekStorm - Walter (Sep 10, 2014)

Well we had paypal, and we disable before for anumber of reason and we didnt notice any drop in business.


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## Serveo (Sep 13, 2014)

Sam said:


> I would personally stick with PayPal because:
> 
> 1) People often keep a certain balance in the PP account.
> 
> ...


Lets not forget that Paypal is integrated into almost everything. If you focus on a global customer base, just stick with them. Ever have an dispute? Just notice its about a virtual service and you always get your money. Also regarding BTC, it was a nice hype to make big bucks, but if you focus on a sustainable business, then keep far away from it.

Just my two cents,

Enjoy the weekend!


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## jvkz (Sep 16, 2014)

Yes, 70-90% customer prefer to pay using PayPal as it save them time. Make your verification process more efficient to fight with this charge back bug.


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## NullMind (Sep 19, 2014)

We have started to use Stripe, I really like how easy it is to integrate to it and if you are using an off the shelve billing system, there is a good choice there is a plugin for it, the guys at Stripe are very friendly and it's a merchant and gateway all in one, advise you check them out.

Also great dashboard - http://stripe.com


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## Serveo (Sep 19, 2014)

NullMind said:


> We have started to use Stripe, I really like how easy it is to integrate to it and if you are using an off the shelve billing system, there is a good choice there is a plugin for it, the guys at Stripe are very friendly and it's a merchant and gateway all in one, advise you check them out.
> 
> Also great dashboard - http://stripe.com


Their checkout is indeed amazing and integration codes is seamless, are you using this at Onapp Carlos? Haven't noticed it yet.


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## RockTBN (Sep 23, 2014)

Today I received Reserve Notification of my Paypal account. The reasons the gave me:



> During a recent review of your PayPal account, we determined that it was appropriate to apply a reserve to your account effective in 24 hours. A rolling reserve will be set at *15%* of the processed amount for each day, to be held for a *90* day rolling period.
> 
> 
> For example, 15% of the payments you receive are held at the end of the first day and will be released 24/12/2014, 15% of your payments are held at the end of the second day and will be released on 25/12/2014, and so on.
> ...


It will make our business much worse in the next 3 months with nearly no profit at all. Do you guys have this issue before?


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## hostemo.com (Sep 25, 2014)

Personally i dont really like the paypal as they have no protect to any virtual service. As long as buyer is dispute as Payment not authourized, you will lose the dispute. Although client email ID and paypal ID are matched.


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## DTS-NET (Oct 1, 2014)

I recommend every one uses paypal and bitcoin


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## tdale (Oct 3, 2014)

I've been using 2checkout for almost a year now and they take paypal now. So my customers can use a debit/credit card without signing up for paypal or just use paypal if they wish. Same 2.9% + 30 so its a win win.


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## litespeedhost (Oct 4, 2014)

If you are planing to target US clients, then you need to use paypal cause mostly of USA people use paypal


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## layerbyte_ben (Oct 4, 2014)

At one point I was using the Paypal Payflow Pro to enable processing credit cards directly in the billing panel, as well as accepting payments through the Paypal Standard. After using it for almost a year and some issues with the payment processor on the Paypal Payflow Pro gateway I dropped that portion in favour for Stripe in regards to processing credit cards.

As for dropping the Paypal Standard, I don't think I could personally even consider doing that unless I was having major issues with that payment method. Too many people rather pay using their Paypal accounts then provide payment details directly to a service provider they have not used before. (I myself will pay using Paypal than provide my credit card information online to a service provider I've never used before).


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## Roger (Oct 13, 2014)

Paypal drives more than 90% of the income to this kind of business. People is more aware of the fewer probabilities of a card fraud due to Paypal not showing their credit card information to merchants. Dropping Paypal would be dropping 90% of business.

We use another Stripe as an alternative direct CC processor and we get much more disputes for this payments than what we do for those processed through Paypal.


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## ZweiTiger (Oct 16, 2014)

Stripe is very good , but still not supported my country (Hungary) 

Best paypal alternative , everybody got a credit card. Simple dashboard - interface etc. But sure in the USA this is the best...

But i like paypal too , its avaible in my country : P

Everybody use paypal so.. there is no alternative for it  Trust level!


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## Virpus-Ken (Oct 16, 2014)

Unfortunately PayPal is a must.  I have no issues with them overall.  They are easy to work with and customers generally love them.


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## ZweiTiger (Oct 16, 2014)

Virpus-Ken said:


> Unfortunately PayPal is a must.  I have no issues with them overall.  They are easy to work with and customers generally love them.


Nobody could beat paypal . haha


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## Virpus-Ken (Oct 16, 2014)

In popularity, it will be a while, if ever, for someone to really catch up to their model and be at their level.  Ultimately it would be very nice to see the market go in the direction of Bitcoin just because it is cheaper.  However it does not provide customer assurances, since its pretty much a one way lane without any sort of recourse if the entity you sent coins to refuses to refund you.


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## AbeloHost (Oct 21, 2014)

I wouldn't recommend not using PayPal. Too many clients use it. Don't think you'll maximize your company's potential this way.


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## coreyman (Oct 21, 2014)

I am no longer thinking about not using paypal. This can be closed.


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## GigaboxHost (Dec 2, 2014)

The Paypal product is too widely accepted and feel it is almost a requirement to have, we see a lot of clients that change from bit pay to paypal.


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## EnveraHost (Dec 7, 2014)

If Google's payment service isn't discontinued then it could be a great contender to PayPal. Unfortunately it has been confirmed that it will end in March.

I still utilize PayPal for the only reason that if I didn't I would lose a lot of business (majority of it).


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## TurnkeyInternet (Dec 8, 2014)

coreyman said:


> I am no longer thinking about not using paypal. This can be closed.


Glad to see you stuck it out with paypal!    as everyone mentioned, for online hosting sales, its the top dog.


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## comXyz (Dec 9, 2014)

I only use Paypal, if you don't have Paypal as payment method, I cannot become your customer.


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## Aurimas (Dec 11, 2014)

I don't think ditching PayPal is a good choice. However, it mostly depends on your customers. Personally, I'd never drop PayPal. As for myself, I also prefer to pay via PayPal than use my credit card directly.


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## cloudfast (Dec 26, 2014)

we using paypal and paypal pro , if you planning use this merchant please use maxmind >>> Paypal = life saver , we receive daily fraud from singup spammer and attackers  , maxmind help to prevent fake profiles , include proxy , distant


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## Joshua-Epic (Dec 27, 2014)

In the past we did try phasing out paypal after the fees got a bit high and their policy on intangible goods. We tried out 2checkout and a couple of other payment providers and in the end, we stuck with paypal as its widely accepted and used by a majority of online shoppers in the US these days. If you have issues with a paypal transaction, the good thing is that you can always call and generally talk to a rep that is understanding and as others have mentioned, talk shop with them. In 9/10 cases we have experienced in the past few years, they have always fallen in our favor.


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## farhanideas (Dec 29, 2014)

Now a days paypal is best payment gateway in Hosting Industries all hosting provider accept payment through paypal


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## ModyDev (Dec 30, 2014)

You can't survive without paypal opcorn:


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## IntegralHost (Jan 4, 2015)

I think it is impossible to drop Paypal, 90% of My customers are using PayPal


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## IntegralHost (Jan 4, 2015)

Also easy signup and integration makes PayPal more popular.


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## RTGHM (Jan 4, 2015)

I don't know if this is relivent to you or not, but I seem to remember a project that I believe is still in the works, I forget whom is developing it, but it was a one-stop payment processor, so people would deposit money from items like Stripe, Bitcoin, Litecoin, etc. and it'd become all one currency that people can pay with. There was no PayPal option I believe, it might be worth it for you, I'll see if I can actually find where I saw this again.

As for not accepting PayPal anymore, I think it's a good idea - honestly, despite what people say - Bitcoin is a good form of payment, because suppose someone decides to pay using Bitcoin and abuse your services - well, they can't "dispute" the BTC sent, so you still keep the money. So really, you're not losing out - they are.


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## Geekion (Jan 6, 2015)

i with not to use paypal but many customers have paypal accounts and maybe we will lose them


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