# What country is best for free speech laws?



## hxQ&S8ZaVn9e (Aug 27, 2015)

I want to host a website that would probably upset some people and am looking to host it in a country with the best free speech laws. What countries should I look into that is good for free speech and privacy?


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## BlaZe (Aug 27, 2015)

Panama supports freedom of speech.


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## perennate (Aug 27, 2015)

U.S.


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## k0nsl (Aug 27, 2015)

Asian countries appear to be rather tolerant about most topics but I'm not well-versed in their actual laws against certain topics, or what their actual privacy laws are. Perhaps @William can chime in?


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## HalfEatenPie (Aug 28, 2015)

k0nsl said:


> Asian countries appear to be rather tolerant about most topics but I'm not well-versed in their actual laws against certain topics, or what their actual privacy laws are. Perhaps @William can chime in?



Asian countries are one of the worst.  Each country has their own version of the Great Firewall of China here in Asia.  Korea for example has all porn websites blocked (in addition, if you want hosting in Korea you can't be anonymous and have to submit proof of identification and are supposed to get a Korean Legal Alien number (similar to your SSN in the US) and leave all this information with your hoster. 

Japan may be a little better.

The center for hosting in Asia is Singapore and Hong Kong.  Anywhere else is a bit more difficult.


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## telephone (Aug 28, 2015)

HalfEatenPie said:


> Japan may be a little better.


Censored porn for the win! So what's worse @HalfEatenPie, blocked porn sites or having pixelated genitals? Does South Korea have porn inspectors too?


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## DomainBop (Aug 28, 2015)

perennate said:


> U.S.



Privacy: the US has weak Internet privacy laws, and the NSA/war on terror has made a joke of the protections that are on the books

Free Speech: the US ranked #49 in the world on the 2015 Reporters Without Borders Press Freedom Index and is sinking fast.  Countries like Niger, El Salvador, Ghana, Botswana, have more press freedom at this point.  For the first time in 2014, Reporters Wihout Borders also listed the US on its "Enemies of the Internet" list joining the short list of 18 countries that includes countries like China, Syria, Iran, Saudia Arabia, and North Korea.



Quote said:


> Panama supports freedom of speech.


They say they do but they're ranked #83 on the Press Freedom Index with a long history of harassment and intimidation of writers and reporters.  Corruption also means there is a long history of corporations bribing public officials in order to get them to suppress (by initimidating and harrassing writers) anything that is unfavorable to the company that paid the bribe.  Uruguay is probably the best current  bet if you want something in Central/South America.



Quote said:


> that would probably upset some people


Define the type of content that will "upset some people" and it will be easier to steer you in the right direction. Iceland currently has probably the strongest free speech and free press rights if your "upset some people" content is of a political nature (but if your definition of free speech includes hardcore porn then no, avoid Iceland because it is not allowed).


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## HalfEatenPie (Aug 28, 2015)

telephone said:


> HalfEatenPie said:
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> > Japan may be a little better.
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Well since if you try to go to any porn sites they block it at the DNS level with this: http://i.imgur.com/ioh65fC.png  I'd say Japan is probably better since they only pixelate the genitals.  

For those people who have solutions.  YES we all know how to get around DNS level blocking and this and that (such as using a VPN).  I've stated this only to show that Korea is not tolerant and rather that Asia in general is quite the opposite.  Thailand for example has their datacenters constantly raided and shutdown if there's any anti-government talks.  Asia is a difficult place for online hosters and you're restricted to a limited area.


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## Hxxx (Aug 28, 2015)

localhost // 127.0.0.1


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## drmike (Aug 28, 2015)

Always been fond of Luxembourg, Switzerland, other northern European countries, Panama, Costa Rica....

Much of my freedom opinion as a writer comes from other journalists.  This is a list focused around such ranking: https://index.rsf.org/.   Any country that limits media reporting might be free today conceptually, but won't remain so.  Plus media is a national form of collective indoctrination all over.   So that which professes control and vileness again likely isn't free. (see where the US rightly ranks).


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## joepie91 (Aug 28, 2015)

The short answer: None.

*If your threat model is a government/country:* host it in a country that has the least cooperation treaties with the country or countries that you are planning on pissing off, and hope for the best. Purchase services anonymously, never connect from any IP that belongs to you (whether during the ordering process, or for server management). Nobody can be trusted. Rely on technical privacy only, not provider trust (eg. use onion routing, not VPNs).

You will have to accept that there is always the possibility of getting arrested and jailed, tortured, or worse, depending on where you live and who you've pissed off. You will need to be diligent about your operational security 100% of the time - where you host your content is only a tiny factor here.

*If your threat model is random people sending abusemail, and getting your services shut down:* host with companies like UrDN or PRQ who clearly state that they don't care about such abusemail. Alternatively, have a backend server in an undisclosed location, only serving certain whitelisted IPs - then 'rotate' through cheap VPS services elsewhere (especially dodgy ones), set up reverse proxies on them, and whitelist them on the backend server. If a frontend server gets shut down, you change to one at another provider, without data loss.

Unfortunately, such rotation schemes are still necessary in many cases, if your content is controversial enough and you're on a shoestrng budget. The internet is far from a 'free' place nowadays, and going with a 'reputable' provider under your own contact details is still a great way to get burned. You're more or less stuck with the seedy underbelly of providers, in most cases - so design your infrastructure accordingly, and make sure that losing a public-facing server is not a big deal.


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## hxQ&S8ZaVn9e (Aug 28, 2015)

Thanks. It will be for a political site I guess you could call it. But right wing politics that seem to upset people. I do not want to host in the USA even though they are known for their free speech because their privacy laws are not so strong so somewhere else is needed. Thanks.


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## hxQ&S8ZaVn9e (Aug 28, 2015)

> perennate said:
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> > U.S.
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Iceland may be good for me since it will be a political site. No porn or gore or anything like that.


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## MannDude (Aug 28, 2015)

Jeeze. I just checked out the pricing at PRQ out of general curiosity and I must be reading this wrong: http://prq.se/?p=webhost&intl=1 Surely "130 BTC/month" isn't correct. That's over $30,000/mo USD for 1GB of storage. 

Anyhow, if it's just a political site I'd _imagine_ Iceland would suffice. How right-wing are we talking though? Like, http://www.breitbart.com/ right-wing or...?


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## Hxxx (Aug 28, 2015)

Guys, life is short. Living on the run is not worth it. 



Quote said:


> Purchase services anonymously, never connect from any IP that belongs to you (whether during the ordering process, or for server management). Nobody can be trusted. Rely on technical privacy only, not provider trust (eg. use onion routing, not VPNs).


That's a nice advise from a member here, but I have to be honest with you OP you will screw up at some point. Is either that or live a life full of OCD. Your choice buddy.


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## k0nsl (Aug 28, 2015)

HalfEatenPie you wrote:



HalfEatenPie said:


> k0nsl said:
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> > Asian countries appear to be rather tolerant about most topics but I'm not well-versed in their actual laws against certain topics, or what their actual privacy laws are. Perhaps @William can chime in?
> ...


Would that hold true for Europeans as well, who criticize their regimes, or issues pertaining to Euopeans? I had the impression free speech was better in, say, Japan, because in Europe it's more or less non-existent.


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## Dylan (Aug 28, 2015)

hxQ&S8ZaVn9e said:


> Iceland may be good for me since it will be a political site.





hxQ&S8ZaVn9e said:


> But right wing politics that seem to upset people.



Iceland has strong hate speech laws. Not a good idea if the content is, as you seem to be hinting, far-right. Same goes for most European and Latin American countries.

For far-right speech, the US truly is your best option. Privacy's an issue, sure, but the protection of hateful speech is most definitely not. Even the most extreme far-right views possible have been protected over and over by courts (see the 2011 Westboro Baptist Church Supreme Court decision). There's good reason most neo-Nazi groups around the world host their sites in the US.


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## HalfEatenPie (Aug 29, 2015)

k0nsl said:


> HalfEatenPie you wrote:
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Europe is one of the most free continents in the world.  You may think differently, but free speech is SO Much better in Europe than in Asia.  Guaranteed.  Especially in a place like Korea (since I'm more familiar with Korean law) where if you have any online presence on a Korean website you have to enter your Korean Citizens Number.  It's to track individuals on the internet and their uses.  If I recall correctly, this policy was implemented because Korea has a ton of civil unrest and people would organize demonstrations and protests online.  Therefore, the entire concept of anonymity is removed for any services on the internet.  Even video game accounts such has Leagues of Legend requires you to link it to your Korean phone number (which is linked to your Citizen/Alien Registration Number and they verify this through SMS and other means).  At least in Europe you have the ability to be anonymous, for many people in Asia this is not even available.  More detail here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_registration_number#Online_use.  

Europe is probably one of the most free and best continents to live in today.  It has the lowest Human Rights Risk Index score (http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/327783/slide_327783_3180650_free.jpg) and is considered one of the most free area of the world (https://freedomhouse.org/sites/default/files/FITW_World_Map_24x16_fa_GF2015.jpg).  Europe in general has some of the most progressive governments and policies that I just can't imagine anyone thinking otherwise.  Yes everyone has their problems, but people in Europe definitely are much more free than others.  

In the end though, if you really want "free speech hosting", your best bet is to probably host in a country that isn't best friends with the country you're talking against.


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## k0nsl (Aug 29, 2015)

HalfEatenPie said:


> k0nsl said:
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I suppose that's a consolation for those who have been heavily fined or jailed in one of the _*"freest continents in the world"*_ and maybe when I tell my friend — who spent 30 months in a German prison — he'll cheer up, as well. I mean, what's 30 months in the slammer for writing a scientific report, anyway? Tss, tss


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## MannDude (Aug 29, 2015)

Europe is not the place for anything that could be deemed 'hate speech', I do know that. Sweden, for example, who is having a lot of issues with illegal immigration and crime related to such has been heavily censoring and punishing those who speak out regarding that. I do recall reading that some guys were discussing with each other, on a public bus, their dislike for the immigration laws and were arrested for hate speech.

Sweden is literally what I imagine a country ran by SJWs would be like. No offence to any Swedes here. You have a beautiful country full of kind and overly trusting people. But you also recently sentenced a Somali immigrant who raped a 12 year old girl to only 180 hours of community service... Y'all too soft and accepting. 

I actually know of a site that _was_ hosted in Sweden, then opted to move to the USA for America's better freedom of speech laws. I will say that the US has a pretty good track record of defending civil liberties such as freedom of speech even when it's vile, disgusting, and upsetting to the mass. That's one thing I love about this country. Our privacy laws are shit, though, so just because you're free to say what you want doesn't mean you won't be put on a list or considered some sort of extremist.


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## DomainBop (Aug 29, 2015)

HalfEatenPie said:


> k0nsl said:
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> > Would that hold true for Europeans as well, who criticize their regimes, or issues pertaining to Euopeans? I had the impression free speech was better in, say, Japan, because in Europe it's more or less non-existent.
> ...


Most European countries (especially EU countries) have very strict laws prohibiting the type of speech that is usually found on _"__right wing politics that seem to upset people"_  websites which is why Dylan suggested the US.  Hate speech and holocaust denial (the two types of speech most commonly found on "_far-right"_ websites) are illegal in most EU countries.  

Other European countries have laws against speech that is considered "blasphemy" (Denmark) , "denigration of religion" (Austria, Germany...FYI, if Pussy Riot had pulled their stunt in either of these countries they would have been looking at a longer manadatory jail term than what they received in Russia), "glorification and advancement of terrorism" (Denmark, again).  

Spain is a very good example of a European country which recently passed a slew of new laws that stifle free speech (see this article: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-13/1984-comes-europe-end-freedom-speech-spain ).  Publishing photos of security personnel / police on social media can land you in jail, criticizing the royal family in Spain is also a crime (as it is in the Netherlands), whistleblowing is now considered an act of terrorism, the ability to engage in street protests have been strongly curtailed, and the list goes on.  

Moving on to the UK, the draconian "anti-terror" laws that have been passed or proposed will also have a very chilling effect on the free speech of groups that aren't even remotely connected to terrorism (many animal rights protesters or "Occupy" type economic protesters could also have their speech chilled by these laws).

Plus, strong European privacy laws, especially the "right to be forgotten" court ruling,  have also had a chilling effect on free speech and have led to the censoring of some online content.

TL;DR:  google "Europe and free speech" and you'll find a lot of articles and op-ed pieces about the mad rush to curtail free speech (usually in the name of fighting terrorism or hate speech) by many of those same politicians who marched arm-in-arm in solidarity with their faux pro-free speech "we are charlie" chants.  (here's an article that appeared in the Economist 3 weeks ago: http://www.economist.com/blogs/erasmus/2015/08/free-speech-religion-and-europe and an op-ed from the EUObserver https://euobserver.com/opinion/129823 )


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## HalfEatenPie (Aug 29, 2015)

k0nsl said:


> HalfEatenPie said:
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That sucks for your friend.  I don't know his situation nor do I know exactly what each side has stated.  But the bottom line is that Europe definitely does have it much better than the rest of the world.  Every part of the world still has their sections to work on, but Europe is probably the most lax out of it all.  

Look up stories about times when Korea was a military government, before the third republic.  Much harsher than the Red Scare in the USA during that period, very similar to how the SS was for Nazi Germany, your neighbor even hinted that you were a socialist and the military dragged you off and tortured you (sometimes killed) for months.  Being idealist is fine, hell if everything followed idealistic values then everything would be fine, but unfortunately that's not how the world works.  

Since those days, there has been massive reforms in Korea and things are definitely much better, but there's still buses of riot police driving around the city and many locations with open space (originally squares and parks) have mostly been removed and replaced with trees to prevent mass meetings for protesters and people.  

The entire world is a mess when it comes to political and social policies (including free speech laws), but Europe is the best right now out there.


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## HalfEatenPie (Aug 29, 2015)

DomainBop said:


> HalfEatenPie said:
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I never said Europe wasn't without problems, but seriously saying Asia is so much better than Europe when it comes to free speech law is like saying I'd rather be stabbed with a knife than risk getting a papercut.


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## joepie91 (Aug 29, 2015)

Hxxx said:


> Guys, life is short. Living on the run is not worth it.
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That's unfortunately pretty much inevitable if your adversary is a government. Yet another reason people should think very, very carefully about what kind of government structures they tolerate, and whether representative democracy is really beneficial to society.


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## jarland (Aug 29, 2015)

It really depends on what you have to say. If the topic is specific, there is likely a "best" place for that topic.


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## hxQ&S8ZaVn9e (Aug 29, 2015)

He says it will be a race and immigration based site. It will have news and articles about that. Is Iceland still ok for that? FTR I am only helping to set it up and not the owner.


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## perennate (Aug 29, 2015)

> He says it will be a race and immigration based site. It will have news and articles about that. Is Iceland still ok for that? FTR I am only helping to set it up and not the owner.



No: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech#Iceland

Can you clarify why privacy is a concern for hosting in the U.S.? Do you mean the owner doesn't want to publicly link his or her identity with the website being operated?


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## DomainBop (Aug 29, 2015)

> He says it will be a race and immigration based site. It will have news and articles about that. Is Iceland still ok for that? FTR I am only helping to set it up and not the owner.



Iceland probably isn't OK if the content will be like most  "race...based" sites.   The hate speech laws of most countries criminalize inciting hatred (as required by the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, ICCPR, see this article), but two years ago Iceland took it a step further and amended their hate speech laws to also include public expressions of hatred.

Section 233 (a) of the Icelandic penal code:

_"Anyone who in a ridiculing, slanderous, insulting, threatening or any other manner publicly assaults a person or a group of people on the basis of their nationality, skin colour, race, religion or sexual orientation, shall be fined or jailed for up to 2 years." (In this context "assault" does not refer to physical violence but only to verbal "assault".)_

You might find this summary of hate speech laws in different countries useful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech



> I never said Europe wasn't without problems, but seriously saying Asia is so much better than Europe when it comes to free speech law is like saying I'd rather be stabbed with a knife than risk getting a papercut.


I agree that Europe is comparatively better for free speech rights.  With the exception of Japan and Taiwan, the citizens of most Asian countries don't enjoy the same degree of freedom of speech as (Western) Europeans.  The three lowest ranking countries on Freedom House's annual free speech survey are all Asian countries: North Korea, Uzbekistan, and Turkmenistan.



> It really depends on what you have to say. If the topic is specific, there is likely a "best" place for that topic.


Yes to the first sentence.  Maybe to the second sentence because there are some topics which are illegal in every country.


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## jarland (Aug 29, 2015)

hxQ&S8ZaVn9e said:


> He says it will be a race and immigration based site. It will have news and articles about that. Is Iceland still ok for that? FTR I am only helping to set it up and not the owner.



I've seen plenty of nazi related websites hosted in the US over the years with no government authority trying to shut them down. People DDOS attacking sure, but legally speaking it goes unchallenged.


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## HN-Matt (Aug 29, 2015)

If you're interested in free speech, don't get a .xyz domain.


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## RLT (Aug 29, 2015)

Why is the xyz domain bad?


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## stakehost (Aug 30, 2015)

All asian countries.


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## donator (Aug 31, 2015)

Iceland. Through an Icelandic company (not American providing services in Iceland).


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## HN-Matt (Sep 1, 2015)

@RLT don't think it's 'bad', but they seem to have been remarkably easy to socially engineer into temporarily censoring a particular site (via NXDOMAIN) that had not broken any laws nor their ToS. Pray for Hanlon's Razor and you'll probably be okay.


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## tarunap (Sep 2, 2015)

U.S,


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