# Anyone running solar powered stuff at home?



## MannDude

I recently bought a 100watt solar panel kit from Amazon and am now waiting for a battery, inverter and a some wiring to come in to get it set up. Obviously, I won't be able to power anything massive from it for a long period of time but the idea is that I'll use it to continually power my Raspberry Pi(s) and perhaps even my laptop. The entire thing is more of a project to learn about solar and electricity in general. If it seems to work well I may expand it and add a second or 3rd panel and grow the battery bank so I can power some other small items such as my surveillance DVR and IP cams, coffee pot and phone chargers. I don't expect this to really offset my energy costs since I live in an ancient house that was built in the 1870's that bleeds heating/cooling efficiency but I still want to play with it and get some hands on learning experience anyhow.

Just curious if anyone here is doing anything cool with solar.


----------



## drmike

I have a bunch of alternative energy stuff here (solar and wind).  Most of it I have piled up in storage though.   Waiting to find a place / raw land to build on where such is more acceptable and less let's steal it environment.

Have one panel on an off grid structure currently.   But I need to relocate it as too much tree shading going on.

I have a bunch of solar lanterns I leave in windows as emergency lights in case of grid offline situation.

Batteries just entirely suck.  Cash sewer and shit lifespan.  Look at Rolls and Nickel old school batteries.

Coffee pot, that's high wattage.  Not something you are going to be running on small setup.


----------



## tonyg

@MannDude Make sure you get a bank of deep cycle batteries.

You'd be surprised how much you can power with deep cycle batteries.

My UPS batteries are a pair of marine 12v deep cycle units that will keep my desktop computer with two monitors, and all the network gear running for about 8 hours without a charge.


----------



## MannDude

tonyg said:


> @MannDude Make sure you get a bank of deep cycle batteries.


I'm thinking I'll get 2X this to start: http://www.amazon.com/DEEPCYCLE-SOLAR-ENERGY-STORAGE-BATTERY/dp/B008D5YG3G/ref=pd_bxgy_lg_img_y

Seems to be well reviewed and it was recommended as a purchase for the solar panel kit I bought as well.


----------



## tonyg

I guess it depends on what you want out of the system.

But honestly to spend $75 dollars on a 35 AH battery seems excessive.

I would just go down to Walmart or a local big box store and pick up a pair of marine deep cycle batteries and wire them in parallel.

My batteries are 2X 109 AH units and I think I paid somewhere around $95 each. These things are big and heavy!

Of course if you really want performance buy at least 4 RV deep cycle 6V batteries.


----------



## drmike

tonyg said:


> I guess it depends on what you want out of the system.
> 
> But honestly to spend $75 dollars on a 35 AH battery seems excessive.
> 
> I would just go down to Walmart or a local big box store and pick up a pair of marine deep cycle batteries and wire them in parallel.
> 
> My batteries are 2X 109 AH units and I think I paid somewhere around $95 each. These things are big and heavy!
> 
> Of course if you really want performance buy at least 4 RV deep cycle 6V batteries.


I've prior bought the Walmart batteries and they were at least then horrid (forget which manufacturer).

There aren't many cheap and tolerable batteries out there - deep cycle wise.   These are intended for things like small boats where someone might discharge some while fishing then turns on big enough motor and alternator to smack those cells with a lot of charge power.

Rolls brand batteries are the long time go to favorite for a lot of folks.  There are others, but you aren't going to find them at your local retailers.

I shop local farm, boating, and RV shops where they service and sell gear.  Might find something good, available, made domestically, and known by those folks.

Batteries all said are a PITA.  I can't emphasize enough how much of the weakest link they are in a power system.  Going big on AH is recommended, as discharge and discharge depth are a valid issue that reduces capacity and lifespan of the batteries.   You should stick to 20% discharge maximum optimally.  If you had 70AH, that means drawing out 14AH max.

I recommend while on grid, buying a good battery charger for your system and a cheap LCD meter that outputs battery info live time and current flow.  This is in addition to your controller and should give better values than such does.  Don't forget your inline fuses for all of this, just in case something happens with accidental discharge, lightening, etc.


----------



## JahAGR

Inverters are generally inefficient, so you want to do direct DC-DC for whatever you can. Lots of little switching 12v-5v boards available on eBay for peanuts that would be good for running a raspi, phone charging, etc. Same goes for 12v step-up to run laptops. For $5 the efficiency of those probably isn't the best but it should beat the pants off running an inverter and then stepping that down again 

Good battery tips from drmike, especially re: charging and discharging. A good battery should have a datasheet available that will list recommended charging rates. Usually on bigger ones they'll list a few different uses, giving different rates for floating (UPS type) usage vs cycle usage. Obviously with solar you're somewhat at the mercy of the sun and won't have the flexibility available by charging from mains.

Get some fuse blocks too. A big battery like what you're looking at can pump out a shitload of current, so in the event of a short your wiring will become a (smoky) fuse unless you provide one yourself.

At some point I have a project in mind to run an IP camera from solar power. It'd be in an area that would be a pain to run power to, but could easily be reached by a decent wifi antenna. Would probably just be a one-panel, one-battery job.


----------



## gordonrp

My home solar setup, top tip; ground your inverter.


----------



## drmike

JahAGR said:


> Obviously with solar you're somewhat at the mercy of the sun and won't have the flexibility available by charging from mains.


There's a solution to that, a petrol or other fueled DC genset.   Such is recommended in off grid situations in the north where cloudy days can go one for weeks.

DC PWM generator is pretty simple.   A car alternator will suffice or more cheaply, a DC motor from an e-bike.  You connect the petrol motor to the generator  piece with a belt ideally - will need matching fit pulley arms on both.  That's about all there is to it.  You bolt it all down good and tight and crank it up (with connections in place obviously).

I have a similar setup that is human pedal generated for spring fitness - run that each spring to get back into cycling shape


----------



## MannDude

Thanks for the responses everyone!

I'm holding off on pulling the trigger on the rest of the kit, it's sitting in my Amazon shopping cart but am still reading and learning a bit more. 

Also waiting for the backyards trees to fill in with Spring time leaves so I can bet a better idea of where to mount the panel (ground mount). City came and cut some trees down and there seems to be a great sunny spot that gets sunlight all day but will wait a tad longer before mounting anything.



gordonrp said:


> My home solar setup, top tip; ground your inverter.


Care to share your specs? What are you powering off that?


----------



## gordonrp

I need to take a new pic, but in the pic the specs are;


Tracer 4210 40 Amp MPPT
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E7NI9PE/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

MT-5 LCD Display
http://www.amazon.com/MT-5-Tracer1210RN-Tracer1215RN-Tracer2210RN-Tracer2215RN/dp/B00ECVWDGC/ref=pd_bxgy_lg_text_y
3000w inverter
6x deep cycle batteries
6x 100w panels
Batteries hooked up as 12V, in a spider web style, rather than chained, this prevents any single battery (e.g. the one at the end of the chain before the inverter) from being most charged/discharged all the time (which would shorten it's life).
It powers my fiber connection, a lot of IP cams, couple of computers, and the A/C unit in my little workshop. We used the setup for power for tools (shop vac, work lights, etc) while our house was being completely rewired. 

Since the pic I've got another two batteries, and have repositioned my panels, I'm going to rewire the battery bank as 24v and swap out the inverter. The charge controller already supports 24v.

Like you I started with 100w on Amazon, and it turned into an addicting hobby. I would suggest making sure you get a 24v charge controller, and 24v inverter from the start, as most everyone who does 12v switches to 24v at some point anyway. 24v will result in less loss over longer runs (e.g. from panels), and a bit more efficiency when converting back to 110v AC.


----------



## MannDude

gordonrp said:


> I need to take a new pic, but in the pic the specs are;
> 
> 
> Tracer 4210 40 Amp MPPT http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E7NI9PE/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> MT-5 LCD Display http://www.amazon.com/MT-5-Tracer1210RN-Tracer1215RN-Tracer2210RN-Tracer2215RN/dp/B00ECVWDGC/ref=pd_bxgy_lg_text_y
> 3000w inverter
> 6x deep cycle batteries
> 6x 100w panels
> Batteries hooked up as 12V, in a spider web style, rather than chained, this prevents any single battery (e.g. the one at the end of the chain before the inverter) from being most charged/discharged all the time (which would shorten it's life).
> It powers my fiber connection, a lot of IP cams, couple of computers, and the A/C unit in my little workshop. We used the setup for power for tools (shop vac, work lights, etc) while our house was being completely rewired.
> 
> Since the pic I've got another two batteries, and have repositioned my panels, I'm going to rewire the battery bank as 24v and swap out the inverter. The charge controller already supports 24v.
> 
> Like you I started with 100w on Amazon, and it turned into an addicting hobby. I would suggest making sure you get a 24v charge controller, and 24v inverter from the start, as most everyone who does 12v switches to 24v at some point anyway. 24v will result in less loss over longer runs (e.g. from panels), and a bit more efficiency when converting back to 110v AC.


Nice!

Well, where I am located at now I'm unsure if I can get away with a larger array. I do believe I'd have to have a minimum of 4 panels before I'd be in the 24v arena and because I live in the historic district of my city (actually, it's the largest historic district in the US) I'm sure those bastards on the historic board will complain if they catch wind...  "Houses in the 1870's didn't have large solar panels in the backyard!"

But I definitely want to see about powering my workstation from it and my RPI. I've been working from my laptop+second monitor with a regular keyboard and mouse for the past couple days and find it's more than enough to do my job as well as I was doing it on my power hungry monster box of a PC workstation.

I'm using about 35watts or less at any given time with my laptop + second monitor. Cut that in half if I run the laptop off battery power.

Assuming I wanted to operate like that for say... 9 hours a day, what would you recommend as far as setup goes? I'm still having trouble figuring out needs like that as this is all new to me.


----------



## Mid

unless you have (regular/lengthy) power cuts or you have interest, there is no need to go for solar (let the govt do it). 

on your part, if you could minimize your usage, it would be great 

- a modest 21" lcd monitor instead of theater-like multiples;

- a laptop instead of a desktop;

- an LED/CFL instead of normal bulbs;

- solar water heater instead of electric; (SWH highly priced in US?)

- use of fans instead of ACs or at least only a "few hours AC" (any body in US does this?) 

- use of energy efficient appliances


----------



## gordonrp

@MannDude 12v inverters are cheaper than 24v no doubt, and if you're just doing small scale then you prob wont care about the 12v->24v efficiency differences. 

These are the panels I have, I'd suggest this kit if you're getting 2 panels;

http://www.amazon.com/200W-Mono-Starter-Kit-Controller/dp/B00BCRG22A/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1427811601&sr=8-4&keywords=renogy+kit

If you don't need the "z brackets" then there are 100w kits without the brackets for a bit cheaper IIRC.

As for wattage, I use a constant 103w without the computers running, but running all my ip cams, fiber modem, switches, etc. Powering on the two fanless i3 ssd computers (no monitors, they're servers) adds ~100w. I can run it all constantly and not worry about battery life, and have a couple of days full battery usage spare.

For calculations on run time I would suggest assuming you have 9 hours a day of half the panel output capacity, so if its 100w, then you probably have ~18.75w that you can use constantly 24 hours a day. In Texas here that is a safe bet with roof based panels, but in your location you may need to reduce it. The rough "50%" efficiency is intended to account for shade, clouds, inverter losses, etc. 

With that formula with my 600w of panels I have ~112w I can use constantly 24/7. Now, being in Texas I can actually use quite a bit more, my batteries are almost always full (which is desired anyway rather than deep discharging them), but it allows me to have a few days reserve power. We actually get a few overcast days in the winter each year, etc. The battery bank allows me to run my A/C unit in my workshop, use the shop vac, etc on weekends without having to worry about deep discharge etc


----------



## drmike

MannDude said:


> Well, where I am located at now I'm unsure if I can get away with a larger array. I do believe I'd have to have a minimum of 4 panels before I'd be in the 24v arena and because I live in the historic district of my city (actually, it's the largest historic district in the US) I'm sure those bastards on the historic board will complain if they catch wind...   "Houses in the 1870's didn't have large solar panels in the backyard!"
> 
> Assuming I wanted to operate like that for say... 9 hours a day, what would you recommend as far as setup goes? I'm still having trouble figuring out needs like that as this is all new to me.


Zoning nazis and code enforcement can't say f-ck about ground mounted panels in your yard.  Don't let them try either.  Property ownership starts at property line, start manning up if need be.  Putting them on building in you area would possibly run into permits and all sort of drama.  Avoid all of it with ground mount and stick to DC wiring. If you want to do do AC inverter then down the line and on the slide.  Some jurisidictions may claim control over such when you start monkeying with AC, even if not grid tied.

9 hours x 35 watts = 315 watts.   You have losses and battery inefficiencies and I always overdo those.  So 400 watts.   To get 400 watts into batteries in 4 hours of sunlight on a kind sunny day, you need 100 watts of solar x 4 hours of capture.

Since the sun doesn't shine every day usable in your area, you certainly need to bank reserve. Another 100 watts should suffice.  That gives you an extra 7-8A of storable power.

Battery wise you need 35AH to cover your draw at 100% pull from the cells.  You want to dip into batteries maybe 20%.  That means running 700AH of battery storage.

If all 12V, 500W solar x 4 hours = 2Kw captured a day.

2000 / 12 = 166AH a day @ 12v.

700AH / 166AH = 4.21 days to fill cells from 0 to full without any draw.



Mid said:


> unless you have (regular/lengthy) power cuts or you have interest, there is no need to go for solar (let the govt do it).
> 
> on your part, if you could minimize your usage, it would be great
> 
> - a modest 21" lcd monitor instead of theater-like multiples;
> 
> - a laptop instead of a desktop;
> 
> - an LED/CFL instead of normal bulbs;
> 
> - solar water heater instead of electric; (SWH highly priced in US?)
> 
> - use of fans instead of ACs or at least only a "few hours AC" (any body in US does this?)
> 
> - use of energy efficient appliances


He's intending on going off grid and more folks should.  AC power isn't anything to fool with and generally not so wonderful to life on this planet.  DC in contrast is rather harmless, doesn't involve billed utility, doesn't involve a smart meter, doesn't involve a meter reader, doesn't have their wire running all over your property, etc.



gordonrp said:


> With that formula with my 600w of panels I have ~112w I can use constantly 24/7. Now, being in Texas I can actually use quite a bit more, my batteries are almost always full (which is desired anyway rather than deep discharging them), but it allows me to have a few days reserve power. We actually get a few overcast days in the winter each year, etc. The battery bank allows me to run my A/C unit in my workshop, use the shop vac, etc on weekends without having to worry about deep discharge etc


Planet Texas just rocks for solar.  Ideal environment, one of the best in the US for catching sun.


----------



## MannDude

Got around to getting this setup today:

(1x) 100 watt panel (Soon to add 2 more 20watt panels)

(4x) 6v / 75amp batteries (soon to be 6x)





Batteries still had a charge from their use in a golfcart last year. Will charge for a couple days then add the inverter.



Batteries aren't new. Father had six of these from a golfcart he had that he converted to gas powered. They'll do though. Only using four now, may wire in the other two when I add some cheap harbor freight panels he has as well. (2x 20w).

So far my only plans are to power my Raspberry Pi(s) and IR illuminator floodlight. May use it temporarily for other things as well, but have no high load plans for it. ory planning on offsetting any real electrical costs or anything. This is more a learning project/for-fun than anything else.


----------



## drmike

@MannDude,  did you follow the manual for controller to put in correct usage mode?  That controller is targeted towards solar lighting - think walkway lights overhead.  It has a bunch of different modes.  Make sure it's best choice on config for your use.

I have the same controller - I do believe.  Attached to my fubared solar system.  Thinking the sealed lead acid batteries I have are shot.  Probably 7-8 year old cells and I have them in off grid unheated space - so winter freeze wouldn't have been kind to them either and it was a record nasty winter.

I just ordered a 100+ watt panel to address my offgrid building with the issues.  Ideally this next week it gets here and I get it up.  Need lights out there working and intending on putting wifi repeater out there so I can work on stuff and still check online matters.
 

PS: congrats on taking the leap and getting this set up.


----------



## HalfEatenPie

Wowza.  

I gotta start reading up on these systems now.  Totally interesting.  

Anyone have any good quick-start guide to just start reading and get acquainted with this?  Not planning on purchasing anything really but just want to know the equations and logic behind it all.

Or is it just basic electrical engineering?


----------



## Neo

I have a small 100Watt solar island, running well.

For that you just need basic electricla knowledge, how big should be battery when you have 100 Watts, the cables, the charge controler, fuse....

Enought for USB Devices, charge them serveral times, for my Netbook for over 15 hours. When i am using a 12v to 19v Netbook adapter, otherwise with 110Volt power supply i have a higher loss.

Atm: http://solar.x8e.net/about.html

But got a new charge controler, Steca PR1010, pretty neat one.


----------



## MannDude

drmike said:


> @MannDude,  did you follow the manual for controller to put in correct usage mode?  That controller is targeted towards solar lighting - think walkway lights overhead.  It has a bunch of different modes.  Make sure it's best choice on config for your use.


Charge controller being used is the same as what came with the kit. It'll work for now however I'll eventually want to replace it with something better as I want one that will visually display more information about what is going on. I feel like some also have phone apps or a local web interface (think router configuration) that will let you view what is happening on your PC and export the info as well.

Sort of an overcast today so far. Was hoping it'd be a nice bright sunny morning as it has been as the panel would have been submerged in sunlight. Once the sun comes out I'll go readjust the panel a bit and go do some readings. Probably will let the batteries charge for a couple days before adding the inverter.


----------



## MannDude

Sun is out and re-poisitioned the panel. It's getting good sun now.


----------



## MannDude

Got the other two panels installed now.


----------



## drmike

MannDude said:


> Sun is out and re-poisitioned the panel. It's getting good sun now.



The old back porch mount job.  That's a field test setup.  You need proper mounting before a breeze sends those flying.  Never lost one in the wind, but they can and will catch air. Had to fetch some once as a storm rolled in and it wasn't fun.  With these, glass will get broken and that's about all she wrote for the panel if so.  Be forewarned.

Optimally the panels should be away from the house and not under trees.  The house blocks light this time of year until probably a tad past noon into 1PM.  The sun gets quickly overhead and best energy to capture is meh, 11AM-2PM.  Problem is you are missing the 11-1PM due to house.  The later sun this time of year you are cutting at angle with the 100W panel.

100W panel, that's facing EAST with some south emphasis correct?

The 2 15W panels, those are directly south facing correct?

The gig with placement (and placement is a PITA) is to get the best quality and shortest path for sun onto the panels.  You want clear total sun cover on the panels.  Some panels really get odd if some cells are in shade.  I see trees reflected on the 15W panel, meaning late afternoon into evening sun on the south side is useless for solar.

The 100W panel would do well on a solar tracker.  There are a bunch of DIY builds or you can buy expensive.  A tracker repositions the panel throughout the day (it moves).


----------



## drmike

HalfEatenPie said:


> Anyone have any good quick-start guide to just start reading and get acquainted with this?  Not planning on purchasing anything really but just want to know the equations and logic behind it all.
> 
> Or is it just basic electrical engineering?


There is really very little to learn with systems like Mann is tinkering with.  Same applies to most solar builds until you amass lots of watts and get into stacking controllers, stacking batteries, AC conversion, etc.

As-is in this thread, if you've ever worked with 12VDC power (think your automobile) you are good to go.

Literally builds like this are:

Solar panel + solar mounting hardware + wire to connect that to a solar controller + wire to connect controller to 12V battery + wire to connect 12V device to power (could be inverter, could be PC, could be lighting, etc.).



MannDude said:


> Charge controller being used is the same as what came with the kit. It'll work for now however I'll eventually want to replace it with something better as I want one that will visually display more information about what is going on. I feel like some also have phone apps or a local web interface (think router configuration) that will let you view what is happening on your PC and export the info as well.


There isn't much to export to a computer from a solar energy system.  It's just in order of importance:


Battery voltage
Capture watts currently
Current watts being drawn (demand)

All other stats data can be deduced / calculated from a pool of those numbers.

Controller you have is capable.  It's no frills and probably $10 in China or less.  That said, it's a great bargain.  I have a fried "good" often referred to solar controller.  It's a 40A controller (so more A ability than yours)  but it was oh $300+. Worth it?  Nope.  Would I buy a pricey controller again?  Only if buying something for a BIG system in Kw size.

There are likely sub $100 controllers with data point collection output.   I haven't ever seen the need for more sissy tech to complicate things.

What you do need and missing from that controller is a meter to see current voltage of the battery.  What I did was this:


Buy an automotive lighter socket with male end. They sell these for putting more sockets in cars.  They are dividers - one end goes into lighter socket, other end has 1-3 female socket ends.  $10~.
Buy an LCD voltage meter.  Simple little import item and tons of them out there.  Buy one for automotive use with cigarette lighter plug on the end. $10 tops.
Cut the male end off the automotive lighter socket in step 1.  Strip the positive and negative wires.
Place the wires into controller on demand/load section.  Or alternatively, just wire those two wires directly to battery terminals on the battery.
At this point you have socket divider wired up, now plug the LCD voltage meter in step 2 into your new female lighter socket.   Should come on and give you battery voltage.
Whole thing can be like a $12 build if you shop well.  Maybe less.

There are battery and tracking of power modules you can in-line wire that exist for RC contraptions.  I have one boxed on shelf waiting for system redev.  They'll do what above does plus a bunch more.  

With the meters and modules herein, one has to come up with a switch or other way of turning them off.  Constant phantom draw going on with such.  Really you only need to check battery and other data when you do.  Rest of the time, blah.


----------



## MannDude

drmike said:


> The old back porch mount job.  That's a field test setup.  You need proper mounting before a breeze sends those flying.  Never lost one in the wind, but they can and will catch air. Had to fetch some once as a storm rolled in and it wasn't fun.  With these, glass will get broken and that's about all she wrote for the panel if so.  Be forewarned.
> 
> Optimally the panels should be away from the house and not under trees.  The house blocks light this time of year until probably a tad past noon into 1PM.  The sun gets quickly overhead and best energy to capture is meh, 11AM-2PM.  Problem is you are missing the 11-1PM due to house.  The later sun this time of year you are cutting at angle with the 100W panel.
> 
> 100W panel, that's facing EAST with some south emphasis correct?
> 
> The 2 15W panels, those are directly south facing correct?
> 
> The gig with placement (and placement is a PITA) is to get the best quality and shortest path for sun onto the panels.  You want clear total sun cover on the panels.  Some panels really get odd if some cells are in shade.  I see trees reflected on the 15W panel, meaning late afternoon into evening sun on the south side is useless for solar.
> 
> The 100W panel would do well on a solar tracker.  There are a bunch of DIY builds or you can buy expensive.  A tracker repositions the panel throughout the day (it moves).


They're located where they're located at for several reasons. I was originally going to place them out in the yard, however would have to:

A.) Build a mount

B.) Buy more cable or make one and splice Renogy's proprietary ends with the extended cable

C.) Worry about theft

I know the setup is not as optimal as it _could_ be. In fact, Indiana is a pretty bad place for solar to begin with and the trees outback doesn't make it better. They only get a few hours of good light each day on days it isn't overcast.

As mentioned, it's just a tinkering/fun/learning/hobby project. As needed and as time and money allows it's quite likely I'll optimize it, but it will serve the purpose I want as it sits now.


----------



## Coastercraze

Not personally, but I do know my work place installed a huge array of solar panels last fall.


----------



## drmike

Coastercraze said:


> Not personally, but I do know my work place installed a huge array of solar panels last fall.


Geez that's a big installation. Didn't realize GM was deploying solar installs this size.


----------



## MannDude

The Solar Pi lives! http://imgur.com/a/3Y14g

Images are large so didn't embed them in here. It's pretty ghetto but it works. Not as efficient as a setup as it could be, but it works. Will monitor usage over the course of the next few days and see how practical it is.


----------



## clarity

MannDude said:


> The Solar Pi lives! http://imgur.com/a/3Y14g
> 
> Images are large so didn't embed them in here. It's pretty ghetto but it works. Not as efficient as a setup as it could be, but it works. Will monitor usage over the course of the next few days and see how practical it is.


That is pretty cool! I need to start playing around with this stuff as well.


----------



## drmike

MannDude said:


> The Solar Pi lives! http://imgur.com/a/3Y14g
> 
> Images are large so didn't embed them in here. It's pretty ghetto but it works. Not as efficient as a setup as it could be, but it works. Will monitor usage over the course of the next few days and see how practical it is.


It's good setup for experimenting.  What you have is what most people start with. Many never exceed this setup.  My builds are only a tad more complicated.  Some fuses going on, big blocking diodes on my pedal generator...

Need inline fuse(s) or DC panel long term for load and safety.  Can quick and cheap make a DC bus bar for wiring things or clamp post connections.  

Look up DC buck converters ($10?) and drop the AC inverter for the Pi.  Going DC --> DC-AC inverter --> AC-DC wall wart 5VDC.  Those conversions are unnecessary, lossy and the inverter is almost surely square sine, which puts a beating on electronic components.

I'd get everything up out of the basement, except batteries.  Put power where you are, not where convenient for running indoors.  Its a simple hole with a drill bit.


----------



## WWW Hosting Services

I used to run my RaspberryPi from solar panels on my window seal. It was pretty cool... it would charge the built in battery during the day and run the RaspberryPi, then during the night it would manage to just about last on the battery. Once every few weeks I'd find it off in the morning where it must have ran out. Was great! Ran a media server 100% green


----------



## drmike

WWW Hosting Services said:


> I used to run my RaspberryPi from solar panels on my window seal. It was pretty cool... it would charge the built in battery during the day and run the RaspberryPi, then during the night it would manage to just about last on the battery. Once every few weeks I'd find it off in the morning where it must have ran out. Was great! Ran a media server 100% green


How many watts of solar and how many amp hours in that battery?


----------



## SaadIsmail

drmike said:


> How many watts of solar and how many amp hours in that battery?


Also want to know watts of solar, already have few of 12v 14A batteries lying around & that solar thing will be awesome to play with after the exams


----------



## MartinD

SaadIsmail said:


> Also want to know watts of solar, already have few of 12v 14A batteries lying around & that solar thing will be awesome to play with after the exams


Normal batteries (from a car, for example) wont be any good. You need deep cycle batteries.


----------



## drmike

MartinD said:


> Normal batteries (from a car, for example) wont be any good. You need deep cycle batteries.


SLA - Sealed Lead Acids should work fine also.  There are other battery types that will work fine also.  Depends on the controller you are using though and what is supported by it.

And the reason why automotive batteries normally found under the bonnet aren't sufficient is due to their need to have high CCAs - cold cranking amps - lots of power needed at once to start the engine.  They are optimized for that mass burst and not for long steady or low continuous draws.


----------



## WWW Hosting Services

drmike said:


> How many watts of solar and how many amp hours in that battery?





SaadIsmail said:


> Also want to know watts of solar, already have few of 12v 14A batteries lying around & that solar thing will be awesome to play with after the exams


My stepdad had a big box type of battery laying in the loft and set it up for me. I wasn't too sure on solar panels and electricity storing but he works for a power company and set it up.


----------



## MartinD

drmike said:


> SLA - Sealed Lead Acids should work fine also.  There are other battery types that will work fine also.  Depends on the controller you are using though and what is supported by it.


Indeed, however, really you should be using deep cycle batteries if you're putting any kind of load on them. Normal batteries (all car batteries included) aren't designed for deep cycle and will very quickly wear out if drained below 80% capacity (some a lot higher). Anything less than 70% will usually kill a battery stone dead to the point it wont take a charge at all - it just slowly drains away. The controller has little to no effect on that until you talk about charging - PWM vs MPPT. Ideally you want MPPT but for cheap installs that run little load then PWM is fine.


----------



## drmike

MartinD said:


> Indeed, however, really you should be using deep cycle batteries if you're putting any kind of load on them. Normal batteries (all car batteries included) aren't designed for deep cycle and will very quickly wear out if drained below 80% capacity (some a lot higher). Anything less than 70% will usually kill a battery stone dead to the point it wont take a charge at all - it just slowly drains away. The controller has little to no effect on that until you talk about charging - PWM vs MPPT. Ideally you want MPPT but for cheap installs that run little load then PWM is fine.


Even the cheap controllers these days are doing far more on charging intelligence.  MPPT I have on my busted Morningstar controller.  That's approach of the pricey controllers still.

The dead battery issue happens all over - even on 1.2 / 1.5V cells (AA/AAA).  Chargers have expected voltages and when you get beneath such they just treat it as a dead cell.   You can actually wire a matching cell to such and trickle energy into the below voltage cell so the charger later will recognize it as alright.  Been doing this trick for decades as deep discharge happens accidentally at times.

Batteries - all of them - are fairly horrendous, regardless of chemistry.

Anyone care to speak kindly of a brand of batteries they use and have been reliable?


----------



## Neo

Never use cheap controllers, they gonna fuck up your battery.

A lot of fake controllers on ebay and stuff.

When you buy a expensive deep cycle battery for lets say 80AH which cost you at least 200$ you dont want to use a cheap controller.

I used Longex and had no problems, for my new mini solarplant i got a Multipower.


----------



## TurnkeyInternet

Just installed my first this weekend - Some motion sensor flood lights I put outside on the shed that has an external solar panel and charge cable for it.  Charges a mini battery non stop, so you have endless night light in case of motion.  Its 'great!    think it cost a whopping $15 at walmart.  Made by Westinghouse.


----------



## MannDude

*Update time:* Am going to make arrangements to power my at-home work station via solar. Crunched the numbers and it should be doable without too much additional cost to the existing system. Going to need to buy another 100watt pannel as well as re-arrange some things so I can start powering stuff upstairs instead of just down in the basement.

2X100watt panels and about 200aH of battery storage should suffice I believe. I'll check my math again before I proceed further but since the 'light' workstations (laptop+second monitor+speakers and sub) use about 35watts of power, I do believe it'll be easy to power off solar.

35watts times 10hours of run time per day = 350 watt hours.

Panels should produce about 800 watts of power per day, give or take.   (2X100watt panel = 200 watts X 4 hours of good sun = 800 watts)

0.35Kw X 3 X 2 = 2.1 Kw battery bank storage (.35kw is daily workstation energy use, 3 is the max days I want to be able to run on the batteries with no charge, 2 is to double it so the batteries never get below 50% used)

2100watts / 12v = 175aH (2100watts = the 2.1Kw from the above example. 12v system so am dividing by 12 to get amp hours.)

Then just replacing the old and potentially dangerous 400watt inverter with a new one.

I may start replacing the existing batteries with some new sealed gel ones. They're much more expensive but they're maintenance free, can be stored indoors (Which is why I want them) and should last a long time... ideally wouldn't need to even think about replacing them for 5 or 6 years. Still researching what my battery options are though. Right now the existing setup will accommodate what I want to do as soon as I get a new panel in the mix and new inverter.


----------



## drmike

Code:


 so the batteries never get below 50% used)

70%+ is recommended low discharge level by most folks.

 

... and you insist on running an inverter.  I've mentioned the inefficiencies of that prior and the hazards of running el cheapo AC inverters (i.e. square sine wave that ruins power supplies).

 

From you list "laptop+second monitor+speakers and sub"...  

 

Laptop is DC at the plug.  Just pick up a car power supply for your laptop. 

 

Monitor may not be DC before the plug, they make DC models, but many have power transformers inside the monitor.  If you have inline block or wall wart, it's almost certainly DC and that's a simple pig tail usually.

 

Speakers - computer ones at least are always DC power.

 

I am wagering 2 out of three items mentioned are DC and no reason to park them on DC-AC inverter.

 

Cost out a decent DC-AC inverter - pure / true sine wave.  They aren't cheap.


----------



## gordonrp

Nice @MannDude, addictive hobby. I just ordered 2x 100ft lengths of 2/0 XHHW-2 copper cable to support adding more panels. I also grabbed this midnite solar combiner box to combine the panels in the attic (4x24v strings of 2x100w 12v panels), and if when it shows up it seems good quality I'll grab a second one to put on the inverter side of the 100ft length. 

I keep thinking about switching the battery bank from 12v to 24v or 48v, but I have too much money invested in 12v inverters for me to want to do it right now.

Still deciding on a new charge controller, probably going with the midnite classic 150 as it will take almost any VOC up to 150v and convert it down to 12/24/48v battery banks.


----------



## raindog308

Personally, I'm waiting for this:


----------



## drmike

gordonrp said:


> I keep thinking about switching the battery bank from 12v to 24v or 48v, but I have too much money invested in 12v inverters for me to want to do it right now.
> 
> Still deciding on a new charge controller, probably going with the midnite classic 150 as it will take almost any VOC up to 150v and convert it down to 12/24/48v battery banks.


24v would probably be optimal.   Those better controllers allow mix and match voltages - like solar input at one voltage and batteries at another.

There are DC-DC converters of all sorts - like 24v to 12V and 48V to 24/12V.  Might be best approach for you since invested in good / costly inverters.  Do 24V battery then on power draw side tether DC-DC step converter and then into the DC to AC inverter.

Reason why I say avoid AC when you can, it gets more complicated and a lot more costly.

That Midnite Classic 150 looks so familiar.... What is the company that uses the same / similar housing for their controllers?  Evading my memory.


----------



## MannDude

drmike said:


> so the batteries never get below 50% used)
> 70%+ is recommended low discharge level by most folks.
> 
> 
> 
> ... and you insist on running an inverter.  I've mentioned the inefficiencies of that prior and the hazards of running el cheapo AC inverters (i.e. square sine wave that ruins power supplies).
> 
> 
> 
> From you list "laptop+second monitor+speakers and sub"...
> 
> 
> 
> Laptop is DC at the plug.  Just pick up a car power supply for your laptop.
> 
> 
> 
> Monitor may not be DC before the plug, they make DC models, but many have power transformers inside the monitor.  If you have inline block or wall wart, it's almost certainly DC and that's a simple pig tail usually.
> 
> 
> 
> Speakers - computer ones at least are always DC power.
> 
> 
> 
> I am wagering 2 out of three items mentioned are DC and no reason to park them on DC-AC inverter.
> 
> 
> 
> Cost out a decent DC-AC inverter - pure / true sine wave.  They aren't cheap.


It'd only get to "50%" after 3 days of 10 hour use, assuming there was no charging of the batteries during those 3 days. So even under normal use, with the sun rising and setting each day (god I hope) it shouldn't even hit 70%. 

I know it's inefficient but I'm trying to keep it simple. I want things to run from the same inverter and dont' want to have an adapter for this device, have one for this one, and then have this other thing plugged into the inverter. Easier to just have it all run on the same stuff and build accordingly. 12v is recommended for systems under 1Kw anyhow.

True sine waive inverters aren't too bad. Lots of options for high output ones for $200 or less. Many of which will include USB chargers which I could use for things like my phone and Raspberry Pi.


----------



## MartinD

The inverters make it more complicated!

Everything you've mentioned so far runs off 12vdc (as drmike mentioned) so to be pulling that up to 120/240vac and back down to 12vdc is hugely inefficient and complicates things a lot more than they have to be. Then there's the safety aspect of both yourself and the equipment - there's just no need.

Create a 12vdc powerbank rail that you can plug in to instead. A little bit of modification of some cables/plugs and you'll be up and running the most efficient and safest way possible.


----------



## MannDude

Okay, if I don't use an inverter how do I actually _power_ my devices then? If I can't plug them into something as I do now, how am I connecting them to power? I can't even visualize what it is you're referring to.


----------



## MartinD

You connect directly to the battery (or a powerbank connected to the battery).

The adapter for your laptop is just a transformer and inverter to go from ac down to 12vdc (or 9, or whatever). If you get a car adapter for your laptop it'll be the same thing so you just snip off the cigarette lighter plug and take the 2 wires directly to the battery.

Everything should be done via fuses though, of course!


----------



## rmlhhd

MannDude said:


> Okay, if I don't use an inverter how do I actually _power_ my devices then? If I can't plug them into something as I do now, how am I connecting them to power? I can't even visualize what it is you're referring to.


Something like these should do fine - http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_7?url=search-alias%3Delectronics&field-keywords=12v+bus+bar&sprefix=12v+bus%2Caps%2C218&rh=n%3A172282%2Ck%3A12v+bus+bar

As @MartinD said use fuses.


----------



## JahAGR

MannDude said:


> True sine waive inverters aren't too bad. Lots of options for high output ones for $200 or less. Many of which will include USB chargers which I could use for things like my phone and Raspberry Pi.


Not sure how high output you're looking at but beware of anything that seems too good to be true for the price.

Here's a page about a guy who got a cheap high power true sine inverter, had it blow up under very little load, and ended up having to redesign it to make it usable...

http://ludens.cl/Electron/chinverter/chinverter.html

(This guy has a really cool custom hydroelectric setup too if you check out the rest of his site. Highly recommended)

Power electronics are expensive and the cheapo manufacturers will cut every corner they possibly can. Try to go DC-DC wherever possible.


----------



## gordonrp

drmike said:


> That Midnite Classic 150 looks so familiar.... What is the company that uses the same / similar housing for their controllers?  Evading my memory.


Maybe the outback flexmax80 (fm80) http://www.amazon.com/Outback-Flexmax-Solar-Charge-Controller/dp/B008MOITL8 which is also my other choice, but probably going midnite solar classic 150 for a few reasons, including their "mostly made/assembled in the usa" per their video;


----------



## Neo

Yeah better let everything run at DC, you can get for example Notebook chargers that gives you 16-22Volt enought for running a small Notebook or bigger Netbook on 12volt. I do the same, because converting voltage from 12Volt DC to 230Volt for example has about 15-20% loss, depending on the inverter. Same for PC's / small desktops you can get 12/24Volt chargers also to run them on your solargrid without big loss.

Other Bonus what he also said: 12Volt dosent kill you, 120/230Volt does, so its safer.


----------



## PureVoltage

Just picked up a little panel the other day going to play around with it before spending more money on a larger scale.


----------



## drmike

MannDude said:


> True sine waive inverters aren't too bad. Lots of options for high output ones for $200 or less. Many of which will include USB chargers which I could use for things like my phone and Raspberry Pi.



USB power = $10 step / buck converter.  12V to 5V @ 1-3A depending.  That's simple and cheap... and easy to keep stock spare (another point with solar - must be your own inventory control for when things break and they do).


Inverters - pure sine are pricey.  $200 is a big chunk.  Talking 200 watts or more of panels for $200, so it's significant.



rmlhhd said:


> Something like these should do fine - http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_7?url=search-alias%3Delectronics&field-keywords=12v+bus+bar&sprefix=12v+bus%2Caps%2C218&rh=n%3A172282%2Ck%3A12v+bus+bar
> 
> 
> As @MartinD said use fuses.



I have multiple bus bars.  The simplest set for my very small outbuilding setup uses steel twisted/braided wire up off pieces of wood screwed in with metal screws with nylon grommets. 


I have a positive bar and a negative and they are about umm a foot apart to avoid any contact errors.  


It is a simple alligator clamp setup. Made for active use (plugging and unplugging and within a few feet active zone the use, batteries, etc.)


Those small screw terminal bus bars I am meh about.... never had wonderful experience with them and screwed down stuff can work, but probably not for most folks.  More of a hardwired permanent *project* install.


I have large bus bars for my old big system and they are solid copper and 4-5 ft each and we have industrial screw terminals on those.  Cause they were intended to be hooked up to a big fat battery stack where amps really could be flowing. (like 10Kw in battery and multiple Kw in panels).



MannDude said:


> Okay, if I don't use an inverter how do I actually _power_ my devices then? If I can't plug them into something as I do now, how am I connecting them to power? I can't even visualize what it is you're referring to.



Solar kind of fails in this way.  There is no plug standard outside of say automotive lighter plug style stuff (which is prone to failing from bad connections, loose connectors).  The automotive plugs however are dirt cheap and abundant.  I use automotive plugs often since I can buy a female end and then select from MANY prebuilt useful DC things for a relative bargain.  For instances a 3 plug female bar with USB power plug can be had for $5 via Ebay or Amazon.  Power adapters to run notebooks are are abundant in this format and what I have often powered.


There are some more refined sockets and distribution panels in the RV and boating world.  However once you start messing with that, you get so much cash into so little of anything that's it's a joke.


My solution and what I still do is this --- I run multiple wire runs from the controller or battery (prefer a controller with power handling integrated) to where I am using the power.  Everything I have run and continue to is low draw.  So 14g speaker wire is more than adequate for up to 50ft runs (pulling 1-3A tops @ 12V).  Powering computing devices, LED lights, maybe a DC fan array, etc.


On the plug in side (where using the power) you take the wire and strip the end and connect to it a barrel connector (female).  This is much like what you find on many consumer computing devices (circle inlet with a center pin).  Depending on what I am plugging in (I like DIY wiring vs. dealing with manufacturer wonky connectors) I wire in matching sized barrel male connector.


So literally:


battery bank --> 14g wire run --> female barrel adapter --> male barrel adapter --> end thing being poweredDC Pigtails:


http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=dc+pigtail


----------



## drmike

gordonrp said:


> Maybe the outback flexmax80 (fm80) http://www.amazon.com/Outback-Flexmax-Solar-Charge-Controller/dp/B008MOITL8 which is also my other choice, but probably going midnite solar classic 150 for a few reasons, including their "mostly made/assembled in the usa" per their video;


Outback, BINGO... Good company, long recommended as leader on the pro builds of bigger systems for residential market.

I need to watch video on Midnite folks.. Anything built in the USA peaks my interest.  We need more of that and more buying of such.


----------



## drmike

Neo said:


> Other Bonus what he also said: 12Volt dosent kill you, 120/230Volt does, so its safer.


I'll be the first idiot to say this true.

DC is capable of injury so don't discount and get sloppy.  Cross connecting bus bars or battery terminals is mighty ugly instant discharge.

Normally in leaky situation where you are grabbing positive and negative leads it's kind of like a nerve burn feeling.  Nothing to let go of it.  120/230V in contrasts hurts like hell and getting free of it is a big problem with a lot of folks.

There is much about safety and mixed environments (moisture) as you note outdoor landscape lighting continues to be in a big way DC power for sanity sake.  Just been historically expensive for what they sell you.

Mann's pursuit of AC (okay misunderstanding about tethering to DC) keeps me looking at my 4ft power strips loaded with wall warts and looking at tags on other stuff.  Honestly, computing side, damn near everything is DC natively at the point where the device is getting power.

Strip in front of me has 12 plugs and 8 are stepping down to DC.  Remaining 4 are umm probably all DC too though.  Like one I know is DC post-plug  has a power conversion board other side of the plug on unit... Can see it since it's uncased....  Monitors have straight 120V power from wall to unit, they have power conversion inside units.

If one shops smartly and buys gear with wall warts and gets power conversion outside of units, pigtailing everything is a cinch for DC setup.

I've had solar setups for ummm a decade.  I've used an AC inverter twice for testing...


----------



## Eirbyte

Nice to see people getting into renewable energy.

Miriam and myself  have been living off-grid (no mains connection) since 2002. Our system at the moment is 1kW of PV and a 3 meter diameter wind turbine around 2kW charging a 800AH bank of led acid batteries @ 24VDC

All lights in our house are LED 24VDC and power points are AC from an inverter. We built our own wind turbine to Hugh Piggotts design and we teach workshops on how to build them this is one we did in Portugal in 2012 vimeo.com/50145242

It would have made more economic sense to get the grid in the first place but sense was never one of my strong points. Over the years we had a lot of fun and met some interesting people and traveled to interesting places all thanks to renewable energy.

Hosted some sites in the past with the only offgrid datacenter that I know of Aiso.net but the support was not the best and the prices are high.

Good sites for info are:

Hugh Piggott

OtherPower

Paul Gipe

The Back Shed


----------



## drmike

Eirbyte said:


> It would have made more economic sense to get the grid in the first place but sense was never one of my strong points. Over the years we had a lot of fun and met some interesting people and traveled to interesting places all thanks to renewable energy.


Welcome to the forum @Eirbyte!

Have you established the break even point for your own system?  Grid is cheap where the lines are already in place and just need connected mainly.  Still a lot of places where chunks of mile or miles necessary to get power to you, and that's insanely expensive.

ROI on solar isn't bad and happens...  so long as one lives to see that day (i.e. decade or more).

Good piece on batteries ---> http://otherpower.com/off-grid-battery-guide

The Edison batteries are the must haves, but they aren't cheap and few manufacturers.


----------



## Eirbyte

drmike said:


> Have you established the break even point for your own system?  Grid is cheap where the lines are already in place and just need connected mainly.  Still a lot of places where chunks of mile or miles necessary to get power to you, and that's insanely expensive.
> 
> ROI on solar isn't bad and happens...  so long as one lives to see that day (i.e. decade or more).


ROI or payback was never an issue for us we bought some land and started with a 60w panel some old batteries and a petrol generator. We built our system and house oner the years.

Our system now is:

German solar panels 195w x6

Batteries Hoppecke 2v 800ah @24vdc

Outback MX60 that also controls the dump load for the turbine

And our turbine you can see here http://www.eirbyte.ie/blog/wind-turbine-maintenance/


----------



## Neo

I was so bored today, i made a kind of a solar simulator http://www.filedropper.com/solarsim, Source included.

However you can buy Solarpanels,batterys, chargecontrolers and plug any kind of load on it. To see if your setup can keep it up.


----------



## MannDude

Going to install this tomorrow. Got a new pure sine waver inverter and have had a second 100watt panel sitting in the box for like six months now that I need to install. Going to use this to power my RPI and some ham radio gear for now. Trying to get stuff done before storm season. I usually lose power in the spring and summer a few times. Got a couple more batteries to install on the battery bank too.


----------



## Aldryic C'boas

I've been meaning to get around to building panels to put on my roof, just haven't really had the time to do so.  That'll be a good project once I'm done rebuilding the kid's Marlin and get some free time.


----------



## HalfEatenPie

Aldryic C'boas said:


> I've been meaning to get around to building panels to put on my roof, just haven't really had the time to do so.  That'll be a good project once I'm done rebuilding the kid's Marlin and get some free time.



I guess the limit for me is the fact that I"m in an apartment complex and if I try to get on the roof they'll probably charge me of something.


----------



## graeme

Becoming very common in Sri Lanka - tropical, high electricity prices, domestic electricity tariffs that rise with increased usage means it now makes economic sense. I suspect it does in a lot of tropical countries.


----------



## drmike

graeme said:


> Becoming very common in Sri Lanka - tropical, high electricity prices, domestic electricity tariffs that rise with increased usage means it now makes economic sense. I suspect it does in a lot of tropical countries.



Becoming a necessity here in the United States also.  I mean upgrading gear and reducing electric use is costly itself.  Still have the underlying monthly bill even in a slightly trimmed version.


I've used electric for supplemental heating (common as only heat in the south).  The increase in rates led me to mothball that and pack up / disconnect all the electric heating and move to other fuel sources.


KwH are hitting 15 cents and above to consumers.  Unsure how that compares to situation in Sri Lanka - expect it to be relatively cheap comparatively.


Historically we are more use to seeing like 5 cents a KwH.  In my solar modeling / ROI 5 cents was always the magic number.


----------



## graeme

In US dollar terms, Sri Lankan prices vary from 2 and a bit to about 30 cents a kWk on domestic tarrifs with rates increasing with increasing consumption. The people who are switching are those on the higher tarrifs.


Thanks to looking it up, I may have found a cheaper tarrif to switch to.


----------



## MannDude

Got another panel installed today. The bottom two are currently not in use and are just some HarborFreight 15 or 20w panels that I'm going to use to charge a small battery bank up for backup backup power. The top two are 100w Renogy panels and are connected in parallel to a battery bank that I'm now using to power a desk in the kitchen that I'll take a photo of later... it just has a power strip with a few small items tied into it now.


----------



## tmzVPS-Daniel

The only solar thing in my house is a cell phone charger! I need to get more involved. 


- Daniel


----------



## MartinD

What are the rules/regulations for working on the supply from the utilities companies in to your house?


----------



## MannDude

MartinD said:


> What are the rules/regulations for working on the supply from the utilities companies in to your house?





None that I am aware of. I'm not tying the system into the grid anyhow.


My main concern is the historic society bitching since I live in the historic district (House built in the 1870s) but what they don't know wont hurt them. Can't see them from the front of the house and that's what they think is more important to keep historic anyway.


----------



## MannDude

Pretty ghetto, I know.


Once I can wing new batteries I'm going to relocate everything upstairs on a rack so it's closer to where I actually use everything, allows me better access to tinker with stuff, and of course a cleaner/dryer environment. Don't really feel like maintaining an array of lead acid batteries in my living space that I have to vent and let gas off next to where I eat and sleep.


----------



## mitgib

MannDude said:


> Pretty ghetto, I know.



Your deep cells look like they are swelling, but could easily be an optical delusion.


----------



## MannDude

mitgib said:


> Your deep cells look like they are swelling, but could easily be an optical delusion.



I've never noticed it to be honest. When I go back down to the dunge.. err, I mean basement later I'll take a closer look. Keep in mind these were pulled from a golf cart that got converted to gas and sat outside forever before being put to use. They could be swollen a bit.


If I recall properly, you have some solar stuff in operation at home? What batteries are you using? I'm certainly going to replace those as soon as I am able to, as well as replacing the charge controller with a MPPT one and moving the battery bank, inverter, and controller indoors so I have better access to everything and for more tinkering.


----------



## mitgib

MannDude said:


> If I recall properly, you have some solar stuff in operation at home?



Your age is starting to rot your brain   I'd love to make some use of Solar, heat would be my #1 desire in the winter, even though it is ~60 this week, baseboard heat is not cheap, but as a renter, and walking distance to the colo, I'll stay put.


----------



## MannDude

Must have been @KnownHost-Jonathan then?


I'll keep tagging people until I get it right.


----------



## drmike

mitgib said:


> Your age is starting to rot your brain   I'd love to make some use of Solar, heat would be my #1 desire in the winter, even though it is ~60 this week, baseboard heat is not cheap, but as a renter, and walking distance to the colo, I'll stay put.



Baseboard heat is downright pricey today especially compared with the ever sinking natural gas prices.


Location is allegedly everything in real estate, that's why I am headed to uber rural   I prefer wood heat and living simple.  You lads can keep the city amenities.  I'll be on the front porch with my guitar.


----------



## drmike

MannDude said:


> Must have been @KnownHost-Jonathan then?
> 
> 
> I'll keep tagging people until I get it right.



I believe you are thinking of Gordon from Incero


----------



## MannDude

This is all I have for now connected.


Laptop running RTL-SDR, docking station for handheld radio and the CFL light on the desk (which is turned off now, not needed, only turned out for the photo).


I need to get back under my house and pull all the CAT5 for the IP cameras back through the floor and re-route them to where this desk is so I can also run my surveillance system/DVR on solar.


Idea being that if I don't have power I'll be able to still use my radio gear (Soon installing a base antenna outside and other stuff as I get more interested in amateur radio) and that my cameras will still be recording. Of course having light and stuff too is nice and other things could be plugged in as needed.


My actually 'work desk' is next to this that has my soldering iron, dremmel and LiPo battery charging station so I may plug those in fromk time to time just to test the inverter but the main goal is to just have communication/surveillance stuff plugged into the system now. I live right on the border of Indiana and Kentucky and can also point a directional long-range wifi antenna across the river to houses on the other side and pick up some networks. Even if the power is out here with no internet, I can still access the net from across the river which is neat (Assuming they have power too... it's a different grid).


Fun fun.


----------



## drmike

Looks good... Need LED lighting  No reason not to use it these days unless you need something really bright on the cheap from retail location.


What are you tuning on the RTL-SDR?   Using Linux for that too?


----------



## MannDude

drmike said:


> Looks good... Need LED lighting  No reason not to use it these days unless you need something really bright on the cheap from retail location.
> 
> 
> What are you tuning on the RTL-SDR?   Using Linux for that too?



No local chatter at this hour unless I want to listen to the bus drivers for the school corporation so I just dialed in a nearby radio station instead. And yep, Linux of course. Using GQRX and the RTL-SDR.com USB dongle.


The floor in this house is so comically uneven that massive antenna I have attached to the dongle won't stay standing up so I have it leaning over for support... I need to fix the desk so at least it's level... (Even though my chair keeps rolling backwards)


----------



## drmike

MannDude said:


> No local chatter at this hour unless I want to listen to the bus drivers for the school corporation so I just dialed in a nearby radio station instead. And yep, Linux of course. Using GQRX and the RTL-SDR.com USB dongle.
> 
> 
> The floor in this house is so comically uneven that massive antenna I have attached to the dongle won't stay standing up so I have it leaning over for support... I need to fix the desk so at least it's level... (Even though my chair keeps rolling backwards)



That's pretty cool on the SDR.  What sort of dongle is it and what is the tuning range you achieve with?  Antenna is internal ehh?  Thinking about an outdoor one?


I was contemplating a SDR setup and being an optimizer I thought something similar to what you have there.  But the USB would be tossed on a 50ft USB repeater cable and put outside and up high.  Mandatory here with RF interference.  How is your interference there with computers and all?


Floors do that   Basement steel floor jacks and adjustment help.   Desk is simple with some self made shims.


----------



## MannDude

drmike said:


> That's pretty cool on the SDR.  What sort of dongle is it and what is the tuning range you achieve with?  Antenna is internal ehh?  Thinking about an outdoor one?
> 
> 
> I was contemplating a SDR setup and being an optimizer I thought something similar to what you have there.  But the USB would be tossed on a 50ft USB repeater cable and put outside and up high.  Mandatory here with RF interference.  How is your interference there with computers and all?
> 
> 
> Floors do that   Basement steel floor jacks and adjustment help.   Desk is simple with some self made shims.



I got the dongle on Amazon, but you can find alternate sources here since I know you don't like Amazon: http://www.rtl-sdr.com/ ( That site also has a ton of resources / software / tips and what not )


I'll mount an antenna outside for it eventually. Before I do that I'm installing a 30' antenna mast I have access to on my back porch behind the solar panels and installing something like a x50a Diamond base antenna to it for a ground station antenna for my radio. That'll give me access to _most _of the county. Unfortunately I live in a river valley so my range is shit and the only thing I could do to combat that is basically have my antenna above the average terrain height that surrounds me... which isn't possible since that's several hundred feet...


Inside there is a lot of RFI. That can be expected. Radio waves bounce around and I can get a clear signal sitting here, but may move three feet and get nothing but static. I forget what it's called. Once I'm outside, crystal clear on most things actually.


I also got a mag mount antenna for my car. Keep in mind I'm still not licensed (yet) so just scan and listen and take note of active frequencies... Went grocery shopping the other day and was out of the valley and was scanning, got chatter from god knows where. Took note of the frequency, and went home and looked at a couple different repeater maps but was unable to figure out where exactly it was coming from. Not many repeaters around here... most are 30+ miles away. I'm also pretty much smack dab in between Louisville, Kentucky and Cincinnati, Ohio, both of which have a shit ton of repeaters... but it's hard telling what I was hearing. It's also possible it was just simplex communication going radio to radio on a random frequency which would explain why I couldn't find a repeater operating at that frequency. <shrugs>


Regarding the desk... I've got cardboard under it now to level it out. The front end literally need to be about 2 or 3" higher than the back. I wish I was kidding. This house is over 140 years old so I'm used to things not being square or level... haha!


For the radio talk we can move over to:


----------



## MannDude

Updated. 78.7~ watts used running laptop, second monitor, speaker and sub and charging my handheld radio. Just plugging stuff in for shits-n-gigs but everything works fine. I still need to get the DVR for the surveillance system hooked up in here, that's an important one.


----------



## drmike

MannDude said:


> I got the dongle on Amazon, but you can find alternate sources here since I know you don't like Amazon: http://www.rtl-sdr.com/ ( That site also has a ton of resources / software / tips and what not )



Any idea of which dongle / chipset? Amazon is fine   I just personally am not a fan of Bezos nor the churn and burn of Amazon employees.


----------



## drmike

MannDude said:


> Updated. 78.7~ watts used running laptop, second monitor, speaker and sub and charging my handheld radio. Just plugging stuff in for shits-n-gigs but everything works fine. I still need to get the DVR for the surveillance system hooked up in here, that's an important one.



78 watts is a ton of juice for a small solar setup.  You have more watts lost on DC-AC-DC conversions too.


Have you got a meter to measure your solar inbound watts?  Or do you have a controller that measures that data?


----------



## Jonathan

MannDude said:


> Must have been @KnownHost-Jonathan then?
> 
> 
> I'll keep tagging people until I get it right.



Not I


----------



## MannDude

Solar stuff is still going strong. Even when the panels were covered in snow and the sun hadn't shined in days, I kept powering some small stuff with them until the batteries started to deplete. My inverter powers off automatically when the battery bank voltage hits 11.4 volts which I like, keeps you from running them too low.


I've really only been using the system to charge my laptop, phone, run a Raspberry Pi and a LED light 24/7. Also the docking station for my radio stuff that I don't use yet, but will eventually.


I'm going to work on the battery bank next and rebuild it with a few of these 100AH batteries: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00S1RT58C


I've got one on the way right now but won't hook it into the system probably until I get at least one more. I'll keep the batteries upstairs where I can access them, and move the inverter and charge controller upstairs too and build a little control station with some LED panels that displays info about the system.


----------



## drmike

MannDude said:


> Solar stuff is still going strong. Even when the panels were covered in snow and the sun hadn't shined in days, I kept powering some small stuff with them until the batteries started to deplete. My inverter powers off automatically when the battery bank voltage hits 11.4 volts which I like, keeps you from running them too low.
> 
> 
> I've really only been using the system to charge my laptop, phone, run a Raspberry Pi and a LED light 24/7. Also the docking station for my radio stuff that I don't use yet, but will eventually.
> 
> 
> I'm going to work on the battery bank next and rebuild it with a few of these 100AH batteries: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00S1RT58C
> 
> 
> I've got one on the way right now but won't hook it into the system probably until I get at least one more. I'll keep the batteries upstairs where I can access them, and move the inverter and charge controller upstairs too and build a little control station with some LED panels that displays info about the system.



Gear with low power set point is mega good.  Adjustable is even better.  Helps prevent deep discharges which really reduce total battery longevity.


Those 100AH batteries look alright. $10 shipping is great.  Batteries that size aren't light.  I remember buying like 6 batteries and lugging them from store, to car, out of car, down flight of stairs.   Like lugging more dense and less forgiving bags of concrete or sand.  Ones I had included top breathing holes for topping fluid off, meaning oopsie splashes while lugging them too.


Be sure to get batteries up and off earth - a wooden box does wonders.   Needs to be ventilated too as all cells off gas.  SLAs they try to say otherwise about, meh.


How much usable time have you achieved on solar so far with your setup?  LED light 24/7 is quite a bit of draw.


----------



## MannDude

drmike said:


> Gear with low power set point is mega good.  Adjustable is even better.  Helps prevent deep discharges which really reduce total battery longevity.
> 
> 
> Those 100AH batteries look alright. $10 shipping is great.  Batteries that size aren't light.  I remember buying like 6 batteries and lugging them from store, to car, out of car, down flight of stairs.   Like lugging more dense and less forgiving bags of concrete or sand.  Ones I had included top breathing holes for topping fluid off, meaning oopsie splashes while lugging them too.
> 
> 
> Be sure to get batteries up and off earth - a wooden box does wonders.   Needs to be ventilated too as all cells off gas.  SLAs they try to say otherwise about, meh.
> 
> 
> How much usable time have you achieved on solar so far with your setup?  LED light 24/7 is quite a bit of draw.



Yeah, trying to be more efficient with gear I buy and gear I already have in regards to how I use it. I turn things off when not at home (gasp) and try to be reasonable even when I am home (Hey, why is the kitchen light still on?)


The same company has the same battery with free shipping, but it's like $15 more per battery... so I saved $5 by choosing the cheaper battery with $10 shipping. Weird. People can't do math I guess. Reviews on them are good so I suspect they'll do me well. I'm going to have to run around the house with the Kill-o-watt meter over the next week or so and figure out again what I may actually need in terms of battery storage for the stuff I want to actually power by solar.


The battery array I have now works and I'm not sure what will come of it. May be used for backup, backup power, haha... or to power other things with low and constant loads like some LED lights and some infrared flood lights I have for the surveillance system. That bank can be charged with the couple 20watt harborfreight panels that I have that aren't being used right now for anything. Could just tie those into that old battery bank when I switch to the new one for the big panels... (Also want to experiment with some wind stuff too..... just because)


As far as usable time, what do you mean? The LED light draws about 6 or 7 watts and I run it all night. Laptop when dead and on the charger draws about 40 watts by itself for an hour or so until it's fully charged again. Phone, I forget. I usually don't let it get very low anyhow and toss it on the charger every day after work and I turn my phone off while I'm at work since I have to keep it in my car. No use in keeping it turned on when I can't use it. So it's usually never past 50-60% when I do charge it.


----------



## drmike

MannDude said:


> As far as usable time, what do you mean? The LED light draws about 6 or 7 watts and I run it all night. Laptop when dead and on the charger draws about 40 watts by itself for an hour or so until it's fully charged again. Phone, I forget. I usually don't let it get very low anyhow and toss it on the charger every day after work and I turn my phone off while I'm at work since I have to keep it in my car. No use in keeping it turned on when I can't use it. So it's usually never past 50-60% when I do charge it.



So with the LED light + laptop recharging plus the phone, are you able to keep your system topped off / keeping up with use?  Realizing it's cloudy winter and sub optimal mounting surely...


----------



## drmike

MannDude said:


> The battery array I have now works and I'm not sure what will come of it. May be used for backup, backup power, haha... or to power other things with low and constant loads like some LED lights and some infrared flood lights I have for the surveillance system. That bank can be charged with the couple 20watt harborfreight panels that I have that aren't being used right now for anything. Could just tie those into that old battery bank when I switch to the new one for the big panels... (Also want to experiment with some wind stuff too..... just because)



Wind is pretty bad and brutal.  The windmills produce little usable power and have to be blade locked in any real wind.  It's something wind power is, that I wish someone would have beat into my thick skull before I went there.  I feel my investments into wind were totally a waste.  Mounting wind is a PITA.  Need to have an engineered build with rebar and concrete and guy wires.   It's a nightmare.


I bought a Savonius wind turbine since it's ground mountable without all the craziness.  Even worse on performance and literally I have a piece of twisted mess hanging out in storage that I need to debug and repair sometime.


Wind might work charging AA's or something, really.  Only size things are safe and can write the loss off.


Lots of new wind stuff out there which is vibration based and no spinnies, but the stuff is really expensive and unproven yet.


Your existing battery bank - I'd try using it as a segmented system.  Those Harbor Freight panels are meh, but they work.  Tie those to that bank and maybe run it as a backup for lighting.   It would be great for lighting and what the HF kits were sold as.  You should try to find one of the HF controllers - they are junk - but came with various voltage plugs on them which was great to wiring things. As I vaguely recall like 6~ ports - 3v, 6v, 9v and 2+ 12V ports.   They use literally headphone jacks for ends.   Easy to work with even toolless.  But yeah other than that, the controller is shit for a charge controller.  Alright for power distribution though.


----------



## Neo

Some weeks ago, dam snow





2x 50Watt, 1x 80Watt.


----------



## MannDude

drmike said:


> So with the LED light + laptop recharging plus the phone, are you able to keep your system topped off / keeping up with use?  Realizing it's cloudy winter and sub optimal mounting surely...



Yeah, it seems that way. Keep in mind everything is in the basement and I have to go outside and enter the basement from my backyard... old house, built in the 1870's... so it's not something I do or check on daily.



drmike said:


> Wind is pretty bad and brutal.  The windmills produce little usable power and have to be blade locked in any real wind.  It's something wind power is, that I wish someone would have beat into my thick skull before I went there.  I feel my investments into wind were totally a waste.  Mounting wind is a PITA.  Need to have an engineered build with rebar and concrete and guy wires.   It's a nightmare.
> 
> 
> I bought a Savonius wind turbine since it's ground mountable without all the craziness.  Even worse on performance and literally I have a piece of twisted mess hanging out in storage that I need to debug and repair sometime.
> 
> 
> Wind might work charging AA's or something, really.  Only size things are safe and can write the loss off.
> 
> 
> Lots of new wind stuff out there which is vibration based and no spinnies, but the stuff is really expensive and unproven yet.
> 
> 
> Your existing battery bank - I'd try using it as a segmented system.  Those Harbor Freight panels are meh, but they work.  Tie those to that bank and maybe run it as a backup for lighting.   It would be great for lighting and what the HF kits were sold as.  You should try to find one of the HF controllers - they are junk - but came with various voltage plugs on them which was great to wiring things. As I vaguely recall like 6~ ports - 3v, 6v, 9v and 2+ 12V ports.   They use literally headphone jacks for ends.   Easy to work with even toolless.  But yeah other than that, the controller is shit for a charge controller.  Alright for power distribution though.



Well the wind idea was more for shits and gigs than it was for anything serious. My area isn't even good for wind, hell it's not even great for solar due to trees around. Wind, large scale and off grid for the average person seems too costly and a PITA. Only real advantage to it I see is being able to generate power at night.


----------



## MannDude

Neo said:


> Some weeks ago, dam snow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2x 50Watt, 1x 80Watt.





Looks nice and quiet there. Curious though, are you in an apartment? (Was wondering about mounting options)


I had to go and take the snow brush to my panels the other day. Luckily it's that time of year where it's in the 70's one day, and the next week we get 4" of snow that melts a few days later. Almost Spring!


----------



## drmike

MannDude said:


> Well the wind idea was more for shits and gigs than it was for anything serious. My area isn't even good for wind, hell it's not even great for solar due to trees around. Wind, large scale and off grid for the average person seems too costly and a PITA. Only real advantage to it I see is being able to generate power at night.



Yeah wind won't have you laughing.  It was same concept with me, dark winter days, overnights, etc.  Me I think just converting to the daytime schedule and building a little bigger is the best solution.


Makes me want to pull gear out of storage and get tinkering again


----------



## Neo

Costs like 6EUR or so, just need to drill some holes for it on the panels:





http://imgur.com/a/pnx18


----------



## drmike

Neo said:


> Costs like 6EUR or so, just need to drill some holes for it on the panels:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/pnx18



Interesting - look like pipe mounts we use for metal conduit.


I did an improvised mount with the single panel I have installed at current.  No photos sadly.  We cut up a vinyl window and scavenged the track the window slides in.  Cut it into a bunch of usable chunks.


Then took 5 or 6 of those chunks and drilled them into roof decking.  


It's a nice clean sliding release the panel is sandwiched in.   Probably ~ 3+ years into it and flawless.  No wind issue and we get nasty wind here.   No deck leaking (we hit the penetrations top side with some good silicone).


----------



## Neo

NIce, this is my Setup i started with:





1x 20WP with 9AH AGM Battery, had older charger before not efficent enought. Got replaced with Steca Solsum 6A. It seems like 20WP Panel wasn't enought and killed the 9AH before, i need to replace it.


But now it works fine also.


----------



## MannDude

What were you running on that 20watt panel / 9AH battery setup?


Haven't crunched the numbers but I'd reckon that'd power a raspberry Pi or such without issue.


----------



## Neo

Nothing, sometimes i use it to charge my Nokia 3410.


Yes, but there are also days which return you less power because its a cloudy day, in the Sommer yes.


So they ended up saying in a Forum 150WP minimum with 80AH Battery, which is enought to power a Raspberry PI B+ 350mA for like 7 Days without any sun and a Raspberry Zero which draws like only 100mA even longer like 21 days. 150WP Because there is also Winter and Cloudy days,


And that brings it to like 400-500EUR of costs, if you run that thing on grid its like 7EUR per Year.


----------



## drmike

Solar ROI is still broken / not there usually.  Panels are rated / warrantied at 20 years often and lifespan able to be longer than that.  Problem is batteries are about 5 years on average, meaning factor in 4-5 battery purchases.   Controllers go also.  Low input and draw stuff like this shouldn't be too brutal on controllers so we should factor at least 2 controllers over system life.


Let's breakout some numbers on how solar competes.  We'll go with an ARM device with average draw of 5 watts.  


5 x 720 hours = 3600 watt hours or 3.6KwH a month.


@ 20 cents per KwH = 72 cents per month electric cost  = $8.64/year
@ 15 cents per KwH = 54 cents per month electric cost = $6.48/year
@ 10 cents per KwH = 36 cents per month electric cost = $4.32/year


Even when we extend these out to say 10 years, the ROI isn't there.  Top most costly (and an electric rate unrealized in the US at this point) yields $86.40 for a decade.. Compare that vs. panel + controller + wiring + batteries.


Soooo.... Solar remains good where you are:


off grid or electric service is too expensive to run to your location (i.e. rural)

using solar as backup redundancy in case of grid failure

niche hobby applications with emphasis on smaller wattage panels and use


This is all even worse this year as I see solar panels have again floated up in price on small buys (i.e. one off 200 watt or smaller panels).  With China dumping the per watt price sunk well below $1, now it seems to be quite high comparatively.  $120 panel I bought last year has gone up a good $50.


----------



## Neo

No price change here, Paying still 57EUR for 50WP with Shipping, 87EUR for 80WP or 100WP for 76EUR.


The Only thing that increased are the battery costs it seems.


----------



## drmike

Neo said:


> No price change here, Paying still 57EUR for 50WP with Shipping, 87EUR for 80WP or 100WP for 76EUR.
> 
> 
> The Only thing that increased are the battery costs it seems.



Those prices are up... at least from this side of the pond.


87EUR for 80W works out to $1.21 USD...  So comparatively, yes an increase.  


Last year I was seeing commonly $1~ shipped per watt.  Sad I didn't pick up more panels for project


----------



## Neo

Never had something different, 100WP is still like under 80EUR the rest was always priced like that.


Since 2 Years.


----------



## drmike

Neo said:


> Never had something different, 100WP is still like under 80EUR the rest was always priced like that.
> 
> 
> Since 2 Years.



Probably good and proper import tariffs working on your side of the pond.   One of the rare times as a consumer the broken system may have had a financial benefit as a buyer here. Usually such is buying inferior goods and questionable workmanship and certainly no customer support.


China was clearly dumping panels and cells here in the States.  Import stuff over here is rather lacking.  One more reason I can support Trump in his presidential run.  Tariffs are vital to protecting domestic industries from sovereign economic warfare funds that demolish companies by dropping prices, taking market share and killing that competitor, then to possess the market for themselves.


----------



## MannDude

drmike said:


> Last year I was seeing commonly $1~ shipped per watt.  Sad I didn't pick up more panels for project



Where at? Any particular brands or just... eBay Chinese stuff?


All my 100watt panels are from Renogy, and my future ones will be as well. Can probably get them cheaper, can certainly get them more expensive, but Renogy seems like a good company and I doubt they'll be going belly up anytime soon. Support has been good and the product and reviews have been good as well.


----------



## drmike

MannDude said:


> Where at? Any particular brands or just... eBay Chinese stuff?
> 
> 
> All my 100watt panels are from Renogy, and my future ones will be as well. Can probably get them cheaper, can certainly get them more expensive, but Renogy seems like a good company and I doubt they'll be going belly up anytime soon. Support has been good and the product and reviews have been good as well.



Unisolar.   A defunct US manufacturer that has been parted to China I do believe.  They were up in Michigan.


Plenty of 'old stock' of their panels.  Notably flexible panels like these:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=unisolar&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aunisolar


Single panel right now is a full $100 more than I paid last year for a 130W+ panel.


I like these panels since you can in theory bend them and shape things.  Also mounting is via adhesive backing.  So no crazy mounts (which add up and if you live in some zoning hell hole require all sorts of permits and inspections and massively build up on wind sheering effect on your roof).


----------



## Neo

Still trying to get a RaspberryPI Zero, as i heard it only needs 65mA when it idles, which is perfect for my Solar setup.


Setup it with a 12v Monitor, neat but its really hard to get one. If you dont't want to spend like 50$.


----------



## drmike

Neo said:


> Still trying to get a RaspberryPI Zero, as i heard it only needs 65mA when it idles, which is perfect for my Solar setup.
> 
> 
> Setup it with a 12v Monitor, neat but its really hard to get one. If you dont't want to spend like 50$.



Just so you know, most electronics internally are purely DC.  Might need to tap in where the wall wart was externally and remove that, might need to pigtail the internal power board and remove it from equation if power is done inside monitor.


Part of why I don't get guys with solar setups running computers and related on AC power - doing the multiple stages of losses.  Simple to pigtail things and BOOM on DC power and more efficient.


How big did you @Neo go on your monitor?


----------



## Neo

I am still having everything running on DC, even my Notebook and Netbook.


Well these losses when you running it from DC > AC > DC, to huge.


Just buy a Power Supply which runs on 12v and puts it up to 18-21v, which i am using on my devices.


I got some crappy from EBay, but the resultion is garbage, need to get some premium 7" TFT which runs also on 12v but that costs me another 60$.


----------



## drmike

Neo said:


> I am still having everything running on DC, even my Notebook and Netbook.
> 
> 
> Well these losses when you running it from DC > AC > DC, to huge.
> 
> 
> Just buy a Power Supply which runs on 12v and puts it up to 18-21v, which i am using on my devices.
> 
> 
> I got some crappy from EBay, but the resultion is garbage, need to get some premium 7" TFT which runs also on 12v but that costs me another 60$.



Keep stuff running DC.  No reason to penalize yourself and draw power down doing unnecessary power conversion losses.


Monitors are hard to find advertised directly as DC.  They treat them like exotic or something.  Never understood the niche on pricing with DC monitors.  Check out the Lapdock Motorola put out.... might be a solution - know people did RPi laptops from those.  Then again, probably up there in cost.


----------



## MannDude

Tomorrow I plan on switching my solar stuff over to my new battery bank and actually putting the system to some use:








Just 3X 100Ah 12V batteries right now. If I had a bigger bank I could fit four in there or if I rearranged them differently I could maybe get one more in there without having to buy or build a new cabinet for them.


The second photo is a 12V motion sensor tied to a 12V battery health meter... It works but it'd be more optimal to just wire the meter to a switch. Motion sensor draws power when idle, not a lot, but enough to make it worth just using a switch to power on the LED display. Just using it for shits-n-gigs now.


I'll update tomorrow after I get everything hooked up.


----------



## layeronline

Just curious, what's the lifetime for the batteries for solar? 6 years?


----------



## drmike

layeronline said:


> Just curious, what's the lifetime for the batteries for solar? 6 years?



If even...  Depends on how you utilize your batteries...


If you keep them mostly full on charge (requires regular power in without overcharging them) and don't deep discharge (should discharge like 25% of battery ever or severely reduces life of battery) then with better batteries you can get 5+ years out of them.  Batteries are by far the most horrendous part of solar.  They are expensive, heavy, toxic and dangerous.  For off grid, about all you have as an option.   For grid tied, you can get a grid tie inverter.  That will distribute power to your main line and overflow - if you actually are 'producing' more than consuming - will go past meter (at least traditional ones) back to the grid.  Advantage to this is you get rid of the dreaded batteries and do not to go wiring things with alternative 12VDC plugs.  Disadvantage to utility company is people feeding back to powerlines can be a safety issue for utility workers, but on small systems, meh, overblown BS.


Guys with solar and interested in long haul (i.e. batteries that will last as long as their panels) should look at Edison batteries.


----------



## raj

drmike said:


> Disadvantage to utility company is people feeding back to powerlines can be a safety issue for utility workers, but on small systems, meh, overblown BS.



Many utilities require the use of grid tie inverters that feature a safety disconnect switch that will isolate your panels from the grid upon loss of grid power to prevent energizing de-energized portions of the grid from dispersed power generating resources.


----------



## drmike

raj said:


> Many utilities require the use of grid tie inverters that feature a safety disconnect switch that will isolate your panels from the grid upon loss of grid power to prevent energizing de-energized portions of the grid from dispersed power generating resources.



Dealing with grid tie officially is nothing short of miserable. Permits, electrician, inspection, etc.


Everything they recommend should be done if you have a generator also....   Usually that's a facility entry main switch to drop the grid feed.  Today surely are automated ones out there that monitor both sides and have logic to auto switch.


I've never viewed grid tie as a good idea.  Lots of people bought into the hype with them as a utility generation plant and income model for what they didn't use.  I tend to size things small to just covering actual use... so amount I'd ever feed to the grid would be zero.  Grid tie here is sheerly for convenience of using 110v plugs anywhere without rewiring.


I realize the topic of grid tie like this is a tad rogue


----------

