# Stripe, get a clue. Your chargeback system sucks



## SkylarM (Dec 13, 2013)

Little rant here.

When a dispute is opened via a credit card company to a paypal transaction, paypal allows you to accept liability, close out the dispute, and not charge you anything. You don't pay a fee, they refund their portion of the cuts they take from the transaction (their processing fees).

If you dispute it and lose, paypal will typically charge you a fee for attempting to fight the dispute but losing (associated manhours).

When a dispute is opened via STRIPE, stripe will charge you $15 regardless if you fight the dispute and lose or if you accept liability and close it out. On top of this, Stripe also makes YOU cover the associated transaction fees, so they pocket money for a fraudulent fee and make the merchant pay the $15 fee PLUS the transaction fees, so Stripe wins regardless of the outcome.

We are no longer accepting stripe as their fraud systems do not appropriately work, and stripe doesn't attempt to work with their merchants. We are actively seeking a replacement for credit card payments not made via paypal (and we are open to suggestions), but I cannot believe that stripe does this.

/end rant.


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## dcdan (Dec 13, 2013)

We were about to go with Stripe for our new project. So I guess we should not. But what are the alternatives?


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## blergh (Dec 13, 2013)

ccbill?


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## SkylarM (Dec 13, 2013)

dcdan said:


> We were about to go with Stripe for our new project. So I guess we should not. But what are the alternatives?


Braintree seems like a solid alternative. They give you access to funds 2 days after rather than a week, they offer *phone support unlike stripe*, have dedicated fraud teams, have a proper fraud system (they will notify you if someone tries to use a credit card and fails multiple times and then gets one through [stripe doesn't care]), they have a fraud team, same fees, same way to accept cards like stripe does for whmcs.


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## Reece-DM (Dec 13, 2013)

We've faced similar issues.


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## dcdan (Dec 13, 2013)

SkylarM said:


> Braintree seems like a solid alternative. They give you access to funds 2 days after rather than a week, they offer *phone support unlike stripe*, have dedicated fraud teams, have a proper fraud system (they will notify you if someone tries to use a credit card and fails multiple times and then gets one through [stripe doesn't care]), they have a fraud team, same fees, same way to accept cards like stripe does for whmcs.


Thanks, I checked out Braintree, looks like a decent drop-in replacement for Stripe. However, is it any good in case of chargebacks?


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## SkylarM (Dec 13, 2013)

dcdan said:


> Thanks, I checked out Braintree, looks like a decent drop-in replacement for Stripe. However, is it any good in case of chargebacks?


They have significantly better fraud systems from what I can see. They DO charge $15 for a chargeback if you lose the case, but they refund their portion of the transaction fees (my biggest issues with stripe are NO PHONE SUPPORT what-so-ever, and they still pocket their transaction fee and say fuck you to the company using their services).


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## WSWD (Dec 13, 2013)

Not really sure why anybody would use Stripe.  Well I do know...because it's cheap.   PayPal is a different story, but no reason to use Stripe. 

Do yourself a huge favor and get yourself a real merchant account with a real bank (preferably yours).  Yep, it is going to be slightly more expensive per transaction, might even have a monthly fee, but they will work their asses off to fight chargebacks if you are in the right.  I've had a good handful of unscrupulous chargebacks, and haven't lost a single one.  They have literally fought some of these for 2 months straight.

That's the difference between Stripe or PayPal, or whatever, who don't give a shit about you, and your bank who wants to keep you as a client.


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## SkylarM (Dec 13, 2013)

Direct with the bank would be a better option, but you still need a way to process it via WHMCS after that, so you end up double-dipping on some monthly fees no?

Of the chargebacks I've received via stripe, it ends up being transactions from other countries that look less than legitimate if you dig into the information. Stripe doesn't offer appropriate fraud protection systems (IE a guy failed a card charge 5 times with 5 different cards before one went through, stripe didn't notify me) -- Obviously I need to keep a much closer eye on credit card failed attempts like this, but it bothers me to no end that stripe doesn't seem to care, because no matter what happens they get their transaction fees -- which is retarded.


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## Eric1212 (Dec 13, 2013)

Title correction:  your*


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## SkylarM (Dec 13, 2013)

Eric1212 said:


> Title correction:  your*


Anger has no spellcheck!


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## Eric1212 (Dec 13, 2013)

From their website:



> If the dispute is resolved in your favor, however, we refund the $15 fee.
> 
> The disputed amount is refunded to your bank account if the dispute is resolved in your favor.


https://stripe.com/help/disputes


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## SkylarM (Dec 13, 2013)

Eric1212 said:


> From their website:
> 
> https://stripe.com/help/disputes


The $15 fee isn't necessarily the issue, it's the fact that THEY charge YOU for the TRANSACTION FEES that THEY Took from the original transaction.

IE:

$6 charge

$0.47 in transaction fees that they take

Chargeback comes in, they charge you $15 PLUS the $0.47 transaction fee.

You lose/accept liability, you pay $15.47. Stripe keeps their profits from the original transaction.

Nobody else does this. Braintree charges $15, but they refund the transaction fee to the transaction, rather than charging you for it and pocketing the fee for a fraudulent charge.


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## WSWD (Dec 13, 2013)

Our processing gateway is included with the monthly fee we pay our bank, so we aren't charged separately for anything else (except American Express...those a-holes always manage to charge us extra). 

But even if there was some double-dipping, that's the cost of doing business.  It's great to be able to go in to the bank and actually talk with a real person, and work with real people.  When it comes to a chargeback, I can take my paperwork right into the bank, and talk to them.  That to me is well worth the extra monthly cost.

Real businesses dont use Stripe or PayPal or whatever else as their main payment processor.


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## SkylarM (Dec 13, 2013)

WSWD said:


> Our processing gateway is included with the monthly fee we pay our bank, so we aren't charged separately for anything else (except American Express...those a-holes always manage to charge us extra).
> 
> But even if there was some double-dipping, that's the cost of doing business.  It's great to be able to go in to the bank and actually talk with a real person, and work with real people.  When it comes to a chargeback, I can take my paperwork right into the bank, and talk to them.  That to me is well worth the extra monthly cost.
> 
> Real businesses dont use Stripe or PayPal or whatever else as their main payment processor.


Credit Card processing withstanding, not offering paypal as an *online company* specifically as a webhost seems rather silly. The vast majority of our existing business is paypal transactions via account balance, not directly via credit or debit cards. Paypal is too large to simply ignore as a payment option in this industry.


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## WSWD (Dec 13, 2013)

SkylarM said:


> Credit Card processing withstanding, not offering paypal as an *online company* specifically as a webhost seems rather silly. The vast majority of our existing business is paypal transactions via account balance, not directly via credit or debit cards. Paypal is too large to simply ignore as a payment option in this industry.


PayPal is the obvious exception.  Even some brick and mortar businesses (Home Depot, for example) accept PayPal.  But they don't use it as their *MAIN* payment processor.  They use their bank.  There is no reason any legitimate company (even online webhost) should ever use PayPal or Stripe or anything else as their main payment processor, unless of course they are trying to be cheap.  That's what it comes down to.  Either they simply aren't legitimate businesses and thus can't get a business account through their bank, or they're cheap.  Not really any other reasons I can think of.


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## SkylarM (Dec 13, 2013)

WSWD said:


> PayPal is the obvious exception.  Even some brick and mortar businesses (Home Depot, for example) accept PayPal.  But they don't use it as their *MAIN* payment processor.  They use their bank.  There is no reason any legitimate company (even online webhost) should ever use PayPal or Stripe or anything else as their main payment processor, unless of course they are trying to be cheap.  That's what it comes down to.  Either they simply aren't legitimate businesses and thus can't get a business account through their bank, or they're cheap.  Not really any other reasons I can think of.


I'll politely disagree with you relating to paypal. Stripe sure, paypal no.


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## WSWD (Dec 13, 2013)

SkylarM said:


> I'll politely disagree with you relating to paypal. Stripe sure, paypal no.


You can disagree all you like, but I'm right.  Do you know how unprofessional it is when somebody wants to pay with a credit card and it goes through PayPal?  Certainly makes me question the business.  I have almost completely stopped doing business with "companies" that only accept PayPal.  The companies with actual merchant accounts probably aren't going to fold one night and take my money with them.


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## SkylarM (Dec 13, 2013)

WSWD said:


> You can disagree all you like, but I'm right.  Do you know how unprofessional it is when somebody wants to pay with a credit card and it goes through PayPal?  Certainly makes me question the business.  I have almost completely stopped doing business with "companies" that only accept PayPal.  The companies with actual merchant accounts probably aren't going to fold one night and take my money with them.


Paypal being your ONLY option for Credit Cards I agree, but in most cases with online purchases unless it's a major company like Amazon, Newegg, etc I typically trust paypal's system over giving a copy of my credit details to a company such as CC or cVPS(not saying I'd use said companies, but just an example of someone I'd not trust with my credit card details in any fashion.)


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## WSWD (Dec 13, 2013)

SkylarM said:


> I typically trust paypal's system over giving a copy of my credit details to a company such as CC or cVPS.


Well again, it works the other way too.  I don't trust PayPal to actually fight for me if soemthing goes wrong on the buying end either, simply because they don't care.  If something goes wrong with my credit/debit cards, my bank/credit card company is going to fight for me to get that money back.  PayPay certainly isn't.


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## SkylarM (Dec 13, 2013)

WSWD said:


> Well again, it works the other way too.  I don't trust PayPal to actually fight for me if soemthing goes wrong on the buying end either, simply because they don't care.  If something goes wrong with my credit/debit cards, my bank/credit card company is going to fight for me to get that money back.  PayPay certainly isn't.


Fair point.
95% of our business is via paypal. In most cases it's simply due to convinience for the client as it's a system that is widely used, you can get paid for services via paypal, and you can pay for your services via paypal. If it made financial sense not to offer it at all, I'd definitely do everything direct with my bank. Unfortunately it's not quite THAT simple when it comes to paypal.


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## cubixcloud (Dec 13, 2013)

You do have an alternative to Stripe, which would be Authorize.Net. We've used Authorize.Net for almost 10 years at OCOSA and have not had one issue. They have a powerful control panel that allows you to run reports, search for suspicious transactions, unsettled transactions and even process credit cards using their virtual terminal in the event your billing system is offline. They also have their Fraud Detection Suite which is an addon. If interested we would be glad to send you our affiliate link.


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## qps (Dec 13, 2013)

www.cdgcommerce.com is who we use.  Been with them since 2004.  They have Quantum Gateway / Quantum Vault modules for WHMCS.  Quantum Vault is nice because the CC number never touches your WHMCS database.  It stores the CC in their system and uses a token to charge the customer each month.

The fees are a bit higher than Stripe, but we usually win chargebacks.


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## ryanarp (Dec 13, 2013)

So far we have had 1 chargeback from Stripe. We didn't mind the fee, however it was a eye opener.  For those considering braintree that used to have google checkout. Not sure how they verify, I signed up without and just sent a message asking if they will honor it. 

Google Checkout Merchants get a lifetime discounted price:

2.7% + $.30 per transaction


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## dcdan (Dec 13, 2013)

How do you folks win a chargeback when you do not have customer's signature on file?


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## qps (Dec 13, 2013)

dcdan said:


> How do you folks win a chargeback when you do not have customer's signature on file?


Assuming your billing system supports it, checking the box "I agree with the Terms of Service" or something to that effect is sufficient for most chargebacks.


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## amhoab (Dec 13, 2013)

I'm looking at using Balanced as a payment gateway.  It seems that they don't charge if you win a chargeback, either:

https://support.balancedpayments.com/hc/en-us/articles/200135910


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## Nett (Dec 13, 2013)

Same thing with 2CheckOut, that's why I love PayPal better.


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## DomainBop (Dec 13, 2013)

ryanarp said:


> So far we have had 1 chargeback from Stripe. We didn't mind the fee, however it was a eye opener.  For those considering braintree that used to have google checkout. Not sure how they verify, I signed up without and just sent a message asking if they will honor it.
> 
> Google Checkout Merchants get a lifetime discounted price: 2.7% + $.30 per transaction


That's a discounted rate?  Get a real merchant account and you can lower your rates to 1.95%-2.2% + $0.10-$0.25 per transaction for online transactions depending  on who you choose (and your credit history, volume, etc).  If you do any kind of volume the lower rates will more than pay for the gateway fees, statement fees, and million and one other fees that card processors like to nickel and dime you with.



> 95% of our business is via paypal. In most cases it's simply due to convinience for the client as it's a system that is widely used



I'm assuming most of your clients are consumers and not actual businesses.  PayPal (and paying by CC through their  their guest checkout) is an inconvenience (and screams unprofessional) to businesses that pay for their purchases with a company credit card.


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## ryanarp (Dec 13, 2013)

DomainBop said:


> That's a discounted rate?  Get a real merchant account and you can lower your rates to 1.95%-2.2% + $0.10-$0.25 per transaction for online transactions depending  on who you choose (and your credit history, volume, etc).  If you do any kind of volume the lower rates will more than pay for the gateway fees, statement fees, and million and one other fees that card processors like to nickel and dime you with.
> 
> I'm assuming most of your clients are consumers and not actual businesses.  PayPal (and paying by CC through their  their guest checkout) is an inconvenience (and screams unprofessional) to businesses that pay for their purchases with a company credit card.


Discounted for those who insist on using BrainTree. I agree going through a real merchant account will get much lower rates.


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## cubixcloud (Dec 13, 2013)

ryanarp said:


> I agree going through a real merchant account will get much lower rates.


+1 This makes the best sense and works if you can negotiate with your merchant provider. There will always be those that prefer to pay with PayPal or another way however.


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## drmike (Dec 13, 2013)

WSWD said:


> I have almost completely stopped doing business with "companies" that only accept PayPal.  The companies with actual merchant accounts probably aren't going to fold one night and take my money with them.


Well tit-for-tat... I deal nearly solely with companies that DO ACCEPT PAYPAL.

Last thing I want is my debit/credit card info floating around come next hack of a data provider or that cute boutique web store.

Mind you, I hate PayPal probably more than most, but hard to argue about it's footprint and wide adoption online.


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## qps (Dec 13, 2013)

Be careful with a merchant account.  The rate they advertise does not count all of the extra fees they tack on.

Also, pretty much every card (rewards cards, business cards) now are at the "Non-Qualified" rate, which adds an extra percent.


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## Nick_A (Dec 13, 2013)

Your.

That is all.

/contribute


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## WSWD (Dec 13, 2013)

drmike said:


> Well tit-for-tat... I deal nearly solely with companies that DO ACCEPT PAYPAL.


Imagine going to McDonalds or something, buying a couple hamburgers and seeing PayPal on your credit card statement instead of McDonalds.  Sorry, but it just has unprofessional written all over it.  You have a "company" who can't or won't get their own merchant account?

Please note the difference I've made several times already in this thread..."companies" that ONLY accept PayPal are different than say Amazon who ALSO accepts PayPal for client convenience.  I don't trust companies who ONLY accept PayPal or Stripe or Square or whatever as far as you can throw them.  I just don't.  Why would any legitimate business not have a real merchant account?



drmike said:


> Last thing I want is my debit/credit card info floating around come next hack of a data provider or that cute boutique web store.


I personally don't care.  I don't care who gets a hold of my credit card information, because my bank stops the fraudulent charges.  They've done it 4 or 5 times so far, and I'm sure will continue to do so.  So for me, it isn't a big deal.  I'd rather have my local bank fighting for me, than some technician in India who could give two shits about me or my money.


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## SkylarM (Dec 13, 2013)

WSWD said:


> Imagine going to McDonalds or something, buying a couple hamburgers and seeing PayPal on your credit card statement instead of McDonalds.  Sorry, but it just has unprofessional written all over it.  You have a "company" who can't or won't get their own merchant account?


You're comparing a physical product with a virtual product. Paypal is considered the "norm" in online transactions. Most people have a paypal account and/or deal with paypal on a regular basis.

Not accepting Paypal in the lower-end hosting industry is comparable to only accepting cash payments at a McDonalds, you end up cutting out quite a bit of business that you cannot afford to lose out on.

I agree it looks far more "professional" to have a proper merchant and accept cards locally and being PCI compliant and all that jazz, but your AVERAGE webhost in the low-end sector doesn't have any of that, and wouldn't likely be able to reliably secure your personal information (IE the cVPS hack, or any of the other WHMCS related hacks where the CC information AND CC hash has been stolen).

HUGE companies such as Amazon, Newegg, etc offering paypal for convenience but not as their primary payment gateway makes sense. Fact of the matter is, the expectation in the low end sector is to run off of Paypal. If you expect paypal to be there, then you're likely going to use it for convenience and piece of mind. Should it be the ONLY payment gateway? No. Will it be the vast majority of your payments unless dealing with larger contracts or businesses as opposed to the end-consumer in the low end market? Sure.

Am I willing to trust a low-end provider with my credit card information? Hell no. I'll trust my datacenter with that information, but not a company selling primarily cheap end Virtual Private Servers. There's piece of mind knowing a low-end provider uses something that doesn't store credit card information locally but passes it via JS to a service that handles all of the security features for the company I am purchasing from.

We offer a Credit processing payment option for those that do not wish to use Paypal, cannot use Paypal, or prefer to deal with cards rather than accounts such as with paypal. We're all about options, but expectations are that paypal ends up being the most used gateway as it's essentially an industry standard. If you use our credit processing then GREAT, I am very glad we are able to offer you an option. If you use paypal, that's great too. Either way we're getting paid and you're getting a service.

TL;DR: Paypal is the accepted industry standard in the hosting industry, specifically talking the low end sector where you're buying cheap end VPS, renting dedicated servers, not paying for colocation with a datacenter. Sure people use other methods, but the vast majority is paypal.

I don't have a merchant account through my banking institution. Am I not a *legitimate* business? If so, what makes me non legitimate compared to your company?


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## drmike (Dec 14, 2013)

WSWD said:


> personally don't care.  I don't care who gets a hold of my credit card information, because my bank stops the fraudulent charges.  They've done it 4 or 5 times so far, and I'm sure will continue to do so.  So for me, it isn't a big deal.  I'd rather have my local bank fighting for me, than some technician in India who could give two shits about me or my money.


Well once is too many times.  There are forms to fill out, delays in getting new card, just a whole bunch of wasted time processes.  Plus who knows what fallout to credit or other things.

I've never thought of such as a good time.  Plus doesn't your bank charge you for each incident?  Many do.  $50 or something for the hassle of being victimized.

Banks don't care about your money  Neither does Paypal.


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## WSWD (Dec 14, 2013)

drmike said:


> Well once is too many times.  There are forms to fill out, delays in getting new card, just a whole bunch of wasted time processes.  Plus who knows what fallout to credit or other things.
> 
> I've never thought of such as a good time.  Plus doesn't your bank charge you for each incident?  Many do.  $50 or something for the hassle of being victimized.
> 
> Banks don't care about your money  Neither does Paypal.


My bank definitely cares about my money.  Between the business account and my personal accounts, there is a good chunk of change in there.  They treat me like royalty.  Nope, no charges or anything like that, and credit fallout?  They just shut the charges down before they are even processed.   Not sure what that would have to do with my credit.  Have never filled out a form.  Just a quick phone call.  And I'm happy to say, none of the incidents have ever come from using my credit card online.  They were from physical businesses, like gas stations, restaurants, etc.


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## WSWD (Dec 14, 2013)

SkylarM said:


> I don't have a merchant account through my banking institution. Am I not a *legitimate* business? If so, what makes me non legitimate compared to your company?


That's certainly the impression it gives a lot of people...trust me.  Again, you're dealing I'm guessing with mostly low-end folk and folks buying services for their personal sites, who are used to buying things online with PayPal...they probably don't care.  I have dealt largely with local businesses (small to huge), etc. for almost 20 years, and I can guarantee you, probably 99.9% of them would NEVER go through PayPal to pay us.  In fact, most normal brick and mortar businesses don't have PayPal accounts tied to their business cards, etc., and they would wonder the exact same thing I brought up earlier..."What the hell kind of business is this if all they use is PayPal?"  Imagine if I couldn't process their credit cards in our office, or accept checks from them?  They'd walk right out the door.


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## MartinD (Dec 14, 2013)

There is always PayPal Pro Merchant accounts....where people don't even see PayPal when you use them for card transactions.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Dec 14, 2013)

Just going to add my two cents here... we offer PayPal and Amazon SimplePay for our payment gateways - and have a fair number of large/global companies that retain service with us, and have absolutely zero qualms about what payments we accept.

WSWD, you need to get over yourself.  Just because you have an opinion doesn't automatically make it correct.


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## clarity (Dec 14, 2013)

The forum cop has arrived!


/thread


Anything from this point on doesn't matter!


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## InertiaNetworks-John (Dec 14, 2013)

MartinD said:


> There is always PayPal Pro Merchant accounts....where people don't even see PayPal when you use them for card transactions.


It's only $30/month, so it might not be so bad!


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## Aldryic C'boas (Dec 14, 2013)

DifferentOpinionsNotWanted said:


> The forum cop has arrived!
> 
> 
> /thread
> ...


FFS Drew, my nine year old daughter doesn't cry and throw tantrums as much as you do.  Aren't you old enough to have kids of your own?  Grow up.


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## shunny (Dec 14, 2013)

Aldryic C said:


> FFS Drew, my nine year old daughter doesn't cry and throw tantrums as much as you do.  Aren't you old enough to have kids of your own?  Grow up.


Lol


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## clarity (Dec 14, 2013)

Aldryic C said:


> Grow up.


Nope. I'll keep calling you out on here. I like it better that way.


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## InertiaNetworks-John (Dec 14, 2013)

@SkyarM

Thanks for posting this topic. We have gotten a few chargebacks here and there with stripe and I never stopped to question their fees and what not. After you posted this I seriously am looking into another merchant account.


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## MartinD (Dec 14, 2013)

InertiaNetworks-John said:


> It's only $30/month, so it might not be so bad!


I use it - have had no problems yet!


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## WSWD (Dec 14, 2013)

Aldryic C said:


> WSWD, you need to get over yourself.  Just because you have an opinion doesn't automatically make it correct.


Thanks for the kind words!  Good morning to you too! 



DifferentOpinionsNotWanted said:


> The forum cop has arrived!
> 
> 
> /thread
> ...


Apparently!

Aldryic, you've clearly never run an actual brick and mortar business before.  If you have, try telling people coming in the door that they have to go to PayPal or SimplePay to pay you for your services.  Like I said, they'd walk right out the door. 

To get things back on topic, my point still stands.  PayPal, Stripe, etc. doesn't care about you...not two shits.  Now PayPal Pro might be different, since you are actually paying them.  But I've never used it, so I don't know.  But from what I have seen, heard, and dealt with personally for years and years, they simply aren't going to fight for you.  Your bank on the other hand will.  They want you as a client.  They want your money to invest.  And the right bank will fight to keep you.

If you want to keep losing chargebacks and paying all sorts of fees for the chargebacks, then keep cutting corners and going with all the lowest-cost or free "merchant accounts" you can find.  Keep using PayPal and Stripe and Square and see how well that works out for you and your business.  I haven't lost a single chargeback through my bank, nor a single dime in chargeback fees, for almost 20 years.  If you don't value my opinion, or don't care what I have to offer, then keep losing the chargebacks and paying the fees!  I don't give a shit, to be perfectly honest.  You'll be back here again in a few months with a new "I keep losing chargebacks with __________ and have to pay all sorts of fees" thread.  Just trying to give you some logical common sense business advice.  Take it or don't.  I don't care.


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## SkylarM (Dec 14, 2013)

WSWD said:


> Aldryic, you've clearly never run an actual brick and mortar business before.


I have said this a few times, but I'll say it again. This is an *online* discussion about primarily *online* businesses, not physical shops or any of that jazz. While your point stands relating to *physical stores*, it is irrelevant to the specific topic at hand.

On another note, it's near impossible to lose paypal disputes as a seller of virtual goods. Virtual goods are not covered by the buyer protection policy and they side with my company each and every time.

We're looking at gathering additional information on going direct for processing with our bank, but as it stands right this moment it doesn't make the most sense YET to do so.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Dec 14, 2013)

WSWD said:


> Aldryic, you've clearly never run an actual brick and mortar business before.


And what makes you think you know the first thing about me?  Aside from being dead wrong about my own dealings, you think that your own personal experiences are the worldwide norm. 

Just a bit of advice, to make us even for all you've so helpfully shared: just because your limited perspective has convinced you there is a single way of things, does not make you an expert on all business dealings in the real world.



WSWD said:


> I don't give a shit, to be perfectly honest.  [..] Take it or don't.  I don't care.


That's more than apparent - we can see you're more interested in sounding big and important (hah) than dispensing actual advice.  If you really don't care?  This is an excellent time to walk away, unless you have something more you have to prove to yourself.


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## Francisco (Dec 14, 2013)

I can't provide enough lube for this fight so I'll just give some feedback.

Paypal's pro payment thing (the CC merchant account setup) is....OK. We always hated the hold times they enforced and always refused to lower. We put quite a bit of money through them but that didn't change their mind very much.

The biggest issue is that, at least at the time, their IPN didn't provide enough information for better fraud monitoring.

Francisco


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## MartinD (Dec 14, 2013)

It's a lot better now and you can negotiate the hold terms pretty low. I'm on 21 days I think, down from 60!


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## Francisco (Dec 14, 2013)

MartinD said:


> It's a lot better now and you can negotiate the hold terms pretty low. I'm on 21 days I think, down from 60!


That's good to hear 

Francisco


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## XLvps (Dec 15, 2013)

blergh said:


> ccbill?


Doesn't ccBill take 15% right off the top?


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## KuJoe (Dec 15, 2013)

We've had about the same amount of people pay with Stripe as we've had people pay with bitcoins. Both combined make up less than 1% of transactions while Paypal makes up over 99% since Google Checkout went away. It does appear that Stripe is a big target for fraud as we've had more than enough issues with them but we just keep a better eye on orders that pay with Stripe and everybody is happy. I don't see the point in paying somebody more money to process credit cards when Stripe does it just fine. If I've learned anything in the 2+ years we've been doing this, it's not to rely on your payment processors to do extensive fraud checks.

Honestly, if somebody doesn't want to order from us because we only accept Paypal/Stripe/BitPay then that's fine. We're not going to raise our prices so potential clients feel better about typing in their credit card numbers. I do appreciate being compared to giant corporations like McDonalds though, it puts a smile on my face.


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## WSWD (Dec 15, 2013)

Aldryic C said:


> just because your limited perspective has convinced you there is a single way of things, does not make you an expert on all business dealings in the real world.


My "limited perspective" has consisted of a MBA, a law degree (specializing in business law), owning multi-million dollar businesses for over 20 years, from restaurants to fast food franchises, Southern California's largest electrical services contractor, to hosting.  I've been around the block many, many times.  I know what works and what doesn't.  Business practices don't change online vs. brick and mortar.  The same general principles apply.  Either you know how to run a business or you don't.

If PayPal and Stripe were so great, this thread never would have been started.   Like I said, you guys can keep going that route and come back and start threads like this every few months, frustrated at losing the chargebacks and the fees.  Fine with me.  Was simply trying to help the OP out and let him know what works and what doesn't.  He can do with it what he pleases.

My "limited perspective" has made sure that I have not lost a single chargeback or paid a dime in chargeback fees in 20 years, through my bank, and there have been many attempts made.  The only chargebacks I have ever lost have been through PayPal, and that's simply because they don't care.  I gave them pages and pages of documentation supporting my cases, but it's easier for them to just issue the chargeback.  They're not going to put in the hours and manpower to fight for me over a $5 or $10 sale.  Why would they?  I certainly don't do enough business through PayPal for them to care.  I haven't looked recently, but I know it's under $10k a month through them.  That makes me a small fish in the PayPal world.  90% of my sales are made using credit cards. 



KuJoe said:


> Honestly, if somebody doesn't want to order from us because we only accept Paypal/Stripe/BitPay then that's fine. We're not going to raise our prices so potential clients feel better about typing in their credit card numbers.


You shouldn't have to raise your prices.  I get much better rates through my merchant account than any of the online merchants can offer.  My bank covers my gateway fees and everything.


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## ryanarp (Jan 4, 2014)

This might be off-topic now, but my one and only chargeback with Stripe has been resolved. Back in September, I got a glorious chargeback for $50.02. I put in a PDF of proof that this charge was legit. Even though 4 months have passed since the disputed transaction. I finally got a response that I won the dispute. So I guess to add to this topic I am posting the response of a legit chargeback resolved in the sellers favor. 

"We have good news for you! The disputed payment from September 09 was successfully resolved in your favor by your customer's bank or credit card company. This means that $50.02 and the dispute fee will be returned to your account in the next few days."

They returned the charged amount as well as the fees. Despite all of this I am not defending how Stripe does their chargebacks. Just adding to the thread from a personal experience.


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## john (Jan 4, 2014)

I have similar experiences as Ryan.

A while ago, we had a string of orders from Brazil (each individual order looked legit at the time but later analysis revealed that they were all connected) that all turned out to be abusive (abusive reports come in, service is suspended, we get a chargeback notification). The orders paid with Stripe, PayPal, and Google Checkout. We basically automatically lost the chargeback with PayPal. Google Checkout was a similar series of events. The chargeback cases with Stripe, we won all of them (except one which is still being reviewed). 

Stripe does not appear to rate limit attempts so I keep a close eye on failed payments in Stripe. This is one area they could approve on. However, with Stripe it appears you have a fighting chance to win a chargeback case which does not appear to be the case with PayPal, atleast in my experiences.


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## SkylarM (Jan 4, 2014)

john said:


> I have similar experiences as Ryan.
> 
> A while ago, we had a string of orders from Brazil (each individual order looked legit at the time but later analysis revealed that they were all connected) that all turned out to be abusive (abusive reports come in, service is suspended, we get a chargeback notification). The orders paid with Stripe, PayPal, and Google Checkout. We basically automatically lost the chargeback with PayPal. Google Checkout was a similar series of events. The chargeback cases with Stripe, we won all of them (except one which is still being reviewed).
> 
> Stripe does not appear to rate limit attempts so I keep a close eye on failed payments in Stripe. This is one area they could approve on. However, with Stripe it appears you have a fighting chance to win a chargeback case which does not appear to be the case with PayPal, atleast in my experiences.


Curious. When you say Paypal, I assume it was a Credit Card charge through Paypal, and not a direct Paypal Payment?


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## KuJoe (Jan 4, 2014)

SkylarM said:


> Curious. When you say Paypal, I assume it was a Credit Card charge through Paypal, and not a direct Paypal Payment?


He's talking about Stripe, not Paypal.


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## SkylarM (Jan 4, 2014)

KuJoe said:


> He's talking about Stripe, not Paypal.


I quoted the wrong guy. DOH


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## KuJoe (Jan 4, 2014)

SkylarM said:


> I quoted the wrong guy. DOH


Oh ok. I got confused when I read your post and even did a Ctrl + F to search his post for the word Paypal because I thought I was losing my mind.


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## SkylarM (Jan 4, 2014)

KuJoe said:


> Oh ok. I got confused when I read your post and even did a Ctrl + F to search his post for the word Paypal because I thought I was losing my mind.


No it was all me. I really shouldn't try responding to things before I have coffee.


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## john (Jan 4, 2014)

SkylarM said:


> Curious. When you say Paypal, I assume it was a Credit Card charge through Paypal, and not a direct Paypal Payment?


Yes, a credit card payment through PayPal. We have had credit card chargebacks at PayPal in the past also and lost those, hence leading me to feel like PayPal doesn't fight chargebacks.


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## tragic (Jan 5, 2014)

john said:


> Yes, a credit card payment through PayPal. We have had credit card chargebacks at PayPal in the past also and lost those, hence leading me to feel like PayPal doesn't fight chargebacks.


We had one of these in the past. I called up PayPal and they pretty much told me "We can't do anything about Credit Cards claiming fraud". Needless to say, it sucks and it's a pain to hear.


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## qps (Jan 5, 2014)

Yeah, credit card chargeback through PayPal is pretty much a guaranteed lose.  PayPal doesn't understand how to dispute anything other than physical goods transactions.


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## stripe-questions (Oct 24, 2015)

*Ok , so Stripe.com - what is going on here?*

We have used Paypal for 5 years , not a single dime lost in disputed charges etc. We have Stripe.com for a significantly shorter time and within weeks of using them we receive "Disputes" for goods shipped with tracking. Then it was ok , and now recently disputes have arrived again.

When Stripe email us about a "DISPUTE" - we respond with tracking details , at which point they take back all of the money + $25 dispute fee , and they keep all of the fees also?

At this point it's a waiting game and we're told that our payment being returned to us is dependent UPON THE CARDHOLDER'S BANK?

Excuse me if i'm wrong here , but surely the CARDHOLDER'S BANK is always going to favour their own customer which means you'll lose out of pocket even when you've shipped the item with evidence provided etc.

We received one dispute > provided evidence of shipment delivery >> STRIPE EMAIL US "YOU HAVE LOST THIS CASE".
We received another dispute > provided evidence of shipment delivery >> STRIPE EMAIL US "YOU HAVE LOST THIS CASE".

*Is Stripe.com a company to be completely avoided or am I missing something here? *


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## drmike (Oct 24, 2015)

Guys using Stripe currently should comment.

In past my 3rd party view is that Stripe is fond of letting fraud orders through and smacking you as seller with fees for the fraud.

Lots of guys have gone to Stripe and quickly figured out it doesn't fit their business or approach.


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## KuJoe (Oct 24, 2015)

Stripe is great if you stay diligent. Their fraud checking is very basic if you enable the two features (check zip and check CVV) but they provide a lot more information than Paypal does so we are able to actually catch stolen credit cards whereas Paypal we just have to hope they catch them for you (we received soooooooo many stolen credit card attempts over Stripe when we got listed on LEB a few months back, luckily I could refund the payments before we got the chargebacks). If you're not willing to login and manually review each transaction in Stripe, then it's basically exactly like people paying via credit card over Paypal.


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## drmike (Oct 24, 2015)

"We got listed on LEB a few months back, luckily I could refund the payments before we got the chargebacks"

--- bet you enjoyed that free random listing   Thanks guys, please wreck my week for peanuts.

I'll confirm the mass fraud with cards from LowEndT and LowEndB.. PayPal does well to handle the nonsense and no issues.


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## HN-Matt (Oct 24, 2015)

stripe-questions said:


> ...at which point they take back all of the money + $25 dispute fee , and they keep all of the fees also?



Yikes. I was offering Stripe as a payment gateway earlier this year, for a month or three maybe. Don't remember exactly why, but I had a strange 'gut feeling' about it after spending some time mucking around with the API. Stopped offering it shortly after that.


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## Licensecart (Oct 24, 2015)

stripe-questions said:


> *Ok , so Stripe.com - what is going on here?*
> 
> We have used Paypal for 5 years , not a single dime lost in disputed charges etc. We have Stripe.com for a significantly shorter time and within weeks of using them we receive "Disputes" for goods shipped with tracking. Then it was ok , and now recently disputes have arrived again.
> 
> ...



You can't blame Stripe for your lack of fraud checking, and it also depends how many payments you have received, as the higher number of payments - fraud ones = less likely to get in trouble, you can dispute the chargeback and you can win, the banks aren't stupid and don't always go to the client it depends if the address matches, etc and also what their excuse is.


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## RLT (Oct 24, 2015)

Fraud check fraud check then do it again. Any bad feeling about the order ask for documentation. Lot's of stolen cards being passed to buy services. So yes the card owners bank will side with them since often they weren't the one to do the order.


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## emdad (Oct 25, 2015)

HN-Matt said:


> stripe-questions said:
> 
> 
> > ...at which point they take back all of the money + $25 dispute fee , and they keep all of the fees also?
> ...


But you should have some way to accept CC other than via PP or only PP, Matt. Remember about 2 months ago we had to back and forth about 28 mails for me sending the payment to you? Just sayin...


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## joepie91 (Oct 25, 2015)

WSWD said:


> drmike said:
> 
> 
> > Well tit-for-tat... I deal nearly solely with companies that DO ACCEPT PAYPAL.
> ...


FYI: Not the entire world uses credit cards.


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## d2d4j (Oct 25, 2015)

Hi 

Size of company - economics 

Each is different for company needs given its size, and it means nothing the bigger you are equals better protection. Look at current talk talk issue in uk at the moment. There's supposedly 400,000 user details including all their credit card/personal details at risk, with their overall 4 million customer details, including credit card/bank/personal details. 

I bet they used their own merchant account

You could use same logic over server rental to owned, same with cars, so to me it's each to their own, and I would not be put off if stripe or Paypal payment were the only option

It's just my thoughts

Many thanks

John


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## HN-Matt (Oct 25, 2015)

emdad said:


> HN-Matt said:
> 
> 
> > stripe-questions said:
> ...


I do! No need to use PayPal with me (don't get me started on their exchange rates). Yes, I remember that. You should have told me you wanted to use a credit card, might have been able to cut those emails down a bit. I left Stripe and went elsewhere, doesn't mean I don't accept credit cards.


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## PureVoltage (Oct 26, 2015)

We have been very happy using Stripe, as someone else said they provide far more information about the order than PayPal ever does which makes it really simple to check for fraud. Add this with Fraud record it's pretty solid we can see when a customers credit card fails multiple times.

They have also got much better at detecting fraud orders on their own which helps for some of those who are known to them.

We had one person try over 200 credit cards all blocked


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## DomainBop (Oct 26, 2015)

PureVoltage said:


> We had one person try over 200 credit cards all blocked





Quote said:


> They have also got much better at detecting fraud orders on their own



They should really think about implementing some transaction velocity filters.  With any half decent fraud prevention system the customer's IP would have been blocked from submitting any further transactions to the gateway long before they were able to try 200 different cards.



Quote said:


> they provide far more information about the order than PayPal ever does which makes it really simple to check for fraud


True, but they also provide far fewer fraud prevention tools than the average merchant account (_Authorize.net/Cybersource has a good tool set: __http://www.authorize.net/solutions/merchantsolutions/merchantservices/frauddetectionsuite/_ ) which means payments that should have been blocked by the payment processor get through and you have to manually check them which translates into lost productivity for your workers and higher costs for your business since time=money. Not to mention their 2.9% rates are much higher than the rates you would pay with a real merchant account.


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## WSWD (Oct 27, 2015)

> WSWD said:
> 
> 
> > drmike said:
> ...


The entire world I want to deal with does.  I can count on one hand (and likely have a finger or two left over) the number of times I've purchased something from a non-US company, and all have accepted credit cards.  If a company only accepts PayPal or such, I have no desire doing business with them.  As I said, it has unprofessional written all over them, and my credit card company will go to bat for me if something goes wrong.  PayPal, etc., could care less.


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## d2d4j (Oct 28, 2015)

Hi

I have just received an email this morning stating that stripe will no longer accept payments for us, stating high risk of chargebacks, BUT we have NEVER had any chargebacks with stripe. 

Many thanks

John

Hi John,

Thanks for signing up with Stripe. 

Unfortunately, we will only be able to accept payments for *************** for a bit longer. Because of restrictions from our banking partners, Stripe can only support users with a low risk of customer disputes. After reviewing your website and account information, we've found that your business presents a higher level of risk than we're able to work with.

As noted above, your service will not end immediately--we understand that moving away from Stripe can take time. To help with the transition, we are able to provide you five additional days (beginning today) to switch to a new provider. After that, you won’t be able to accept additional charges on your account, but we will continue making transfers to your bank account until you receive all of your funds[1]. If you need more time, please let us know and we will try our best to work with your schedule.

We're sorry that we can't offer you ongoing service and wish you the best of luck with your business


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## MightWeb-Greg (Oct 28, 2015)

This post is interesting because I was thinking about going with stripe. It seems a lot of providers offer it along with PayPal. Going to rethink this as it doesn't seem efficient should there be issues.


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## joepie91 (Oct 28, 2015)

WSWD said:


> > WSWD said:
> >
> >
> > > drmike said:
> ...


I think you misunderstand. In eg. Germany or the Netherlands, it can be perfectly reasonable for a company to not process CCs, and only accept SEPA transfers (and maybe PayPal as an addition). This does not make them somehow "not professional" - expectations vary by country. Credit cards are not universal.


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## Licensecart (Oct 28, 2015)

WSWD said:


> > WSWD said:
> >
> >
> > > drmike said:
> ...


Fair enough it's like me I think it's un-professional not having a modern (responsive) website design.


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## Licensecart (Oct 28, 2015)

d2d4j said:


> Hi I have just received an email this morning stating that stripe will no longer accept payments for us, stating high risk of chargebacks, BUT we have NEVER had any chargebacks with stripe. Many thanks John Hi John, Thanks for signing up with Stripe. Unfortunately, we will only be able to accept payments for *************** for a bit longer. Because of restrictions from our banking partners, Stripe can only support users with a low risk of customer disputes. After reviewing your website and account information, we've found that your business presents a higher level of risk than we're able to work with. As noted above, your service will not end immediately--we understand that moving away from Stripe can take time. To help with the transition, we are able to provide you five additional days (beginning today) to switch to a new provider. After that, you won’t be able to accept additional charges on your account, but we will continue making transfers to your bank account until you receive all of your funds[1]. If you need more time, please let us know and we will try our best to work with your schedule. We're sorry that we can't offer you ongoing service and wish you the best of luck with your business



Have you used another merchant and had chargebacks? They probably do a check on the name / business name to ensure you have a good record before accepting, you can ask them.


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## d2d4j (Oct 28, 2015)

Hi mike

Many thanks, and no, never had any chargebacks or disputes ever. 

We only accept commercial and we vett all clients who use our systems, which is why we have never had any issues over payments. 

We do not do a high amount through credit/debit cards, which is why we do not have our own merchant account. Most clients pay by bacs and although we're not a large company, some of our clients are blue chip, ie in top 10 of uk top 100 companies, so we do not have to sell to general public 

Many thanks

John


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## WSWD (Oct 28, 2015)

> Fair enough it's like me I think it's un-professional not having a modern (responsive) website design.



Perhaps, but I've found that the very vast majority of people don't visit our site or place orders using a phone, so not really a big deal to me.



> I think you misunderstand. In eg. Germany or the Netherlands, it can be perfectly reasonable for a company to not process CCs, and only accept SEPA transfers (and maybe PayPal as an addition). This does not make them somehow "not professional" - expectations vary by country. Credit cards are not universal.



I didn't misunderstand.  I get that not every country is big on accepting credit cards.  I'm just saying, I would never personally do business with such a company, as if something goes wrong, my options are limited as far as getting my money back.


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## emdad (Oct 28, 2015)

PureVoltage said:


> We have been very happy using Stripe, as someone else said they provide far more information about the order than PayPal ever does which makes it really simple to check for fraud. Add this with Fraud record it's pretty solid we can see when a customers credit card fails multiple times.
> 
> They have also got much better at detecting fraud orders on their own which helps for some of those who are known to them.
> 
> We had one person try over 200 credit cards all blocked



Wow! 200 cards? 3 days ago my bank blocked stripe from charging my card, and I thought I may be blocked by stripe for trying 6/7 times


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## joepie91 (Oct 28, 2015)

WSWD said:


> > I think you misunderstand. In eg. Germany or the Netherlands, it can be perfectly reasonable for a company to not process CCs, and only accept SEPA transfers (and maybe PayPal as an addition). This does not make them somehow "not professional" - expectations vary by country. Credit cards are not universal.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't misunderstand.  I get that not every country is big on accepting credit cards.  I'm just saying, I would never personally do business with such a company, as if something goes wrong, my options are limited as far as getting my money back.


If something goes wrong, you enforce your contract. In most of the Western world, this is a responsibility of the legal system, and not of the payment processor.


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