# The Almighty' Bitcoin Discussion.



## Reece-DM (Aug 27, 2013)

As to some peoples beliefs bitcoin is the biggest thing since sliced bread, however some believe its a waste of time and you money.

I've been monitoring the value of BTC and the news coverage regarding it and I have seen positive gains over the previous weeks ranging from $89 - $112 along with germany recognising it as a personal currency which means one of the major players in EU is showing support for Bitcoin.

What is your opinion on this cryptocurrency? Do you like it? Accept it?


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## Reece-DM (Aug 27, 2013)

I didn't check it today but:


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## KuJoe (Aug 27, 2013)

My vote goes towards the "waste of time and money" belief. This is based on the fact that I don't have time to waste making sure my digital wallet doesn't get hacked and all of my money is wasted.

I don't have anything against it personally, but I have no interest to ever use it since I have zero confidence in it.


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## KuJoe (Aug 27, 2013)

Also, this should go in the Off Topic area.


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## GIANT_CRAB (Aug 27, 2013)

Spending lots of resources and crap to decipher a SHA block is an absolute waste of time and resources.

This will only contribute to more global warming.


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## drmike (Aug 27, 2013)

I think it is a goofy as worthless paper fiat money.

Where to start?

The instruments are rather abstract.  Good luck getting mass adoption there.

The value is way too fluid and suspect to mass losses as well as gains.  Outside unrelated corruption influences already have caused unnatural fluctuations.

Crypto wise, no security and is trackable.  So nothing of value there.

Doesn't provide anonymous transactions like cash does.

Governments are outlawing BitCoin and biggies like the State of New York have sent subpoenas and inevitably will regulate it so much that rest of us will run (if it even exists after that).

It is interesting for speculation and experimenting with - purely with free funds that one can lose.  I wouldn't bank tons with it and would be weary of holding much in such.


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## peterw (Aug 27, 2013)

Botcoin is like gold. As long as enough people think that it has a value you can trade it.

It is highly speculative and does not have any advantage to other currencies.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Aug 27, 2013)

Did you seriously just compare a fabricated 'currency' (and I use that term very loosely) to a precious metal that's been used in trade for thousands of years, has an established and finite value, and is the basis of exchange for most national currencies?


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## Reece-DM (Aug 27, 2013)

Aldryic C said:


> Did you seriously just compare a fabricated 'currency' (and I use that term very loosely) to a precious metal that's been used in trade for thousands of years, has an established and finite value, and is the basis of exchange for most national currencies?


As much as I disagree with him comparing, he is right.. Gold is only valuable to those who want it and what people want to pay for it.

If there wasn't any demand, the prices would drop.. Drastically. Though bitcoin isn't physical at all, if it had the security of being backed by something of value then well..  It would be exchanged throughout the world as a real currency. Sadly its not though.

The money you pay your bills with has no value at all it's just paper if you think about it. If the world screws up what you gonna do with that paper? Ermmm.. Light a fire, Wripe your backside? That's all it would be worth.


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## jarland (Aug 27, 2013)

When I see "bitcoin" I think "toy money." The fact that it's major backing are people who would actually refer to themselves as "anonymous" and believe that said reference holds a meaning is more than enough to keep me away from it. Never seen a guy wearing a tie talking about bitcoin, it's always an awkward teenager or a 20 something still stuck at 17 and wearing a dirty graphic tshirt. If that's who I'm engaging with for my financial future, no thank you.


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## peterw (Aug 27, 2013)

Aldryic C said:


> Did you seriously just compare a fabricated 'currency' (and I use that term very loosely) to a precious metal that's been used in trade for thousands of years, has an established and finite value, and is the basis of exchange for most national currencies?


Yes.

If someone would find some tons of gold and would sell it for 1$ per lbs you would see how much gold would be worth. There is no real value behind it. Only in the minds of people.


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## drmike (Aug 27, 2013)

Bullocks!



> If someone would find some tons of gold and would sell it for 1$ per lbs you would see how much gold would be worth. There is no real value behind it. Only in the minds of people.


Prices are set by demand.   Demand dictates a ton of gold would NEVER sell for $1, unless you were the world's biggest idiot / victim.  

Gold, like silver, is a finite commodity needed for many products today.  Not to mention for showy objects of desire and vaulting it as the best means of wealth preservation for the future.

Ahh, but I'll humor the idea, if you were dropped off in the middle of a remote jungle in Africa, your BitCoin would be worthless, your phone wouldn't work, the dollars in your pocket might be useful for starting a fire at night and your gold and silver coins, only a sliver more useful.  At least the natives might be allured by their sparkling beauty.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Aug 27, 2013)

Reece said:


> The money you pay your bills with has no value at all it's just paper if you think about it. If the world screws up what you gonna do with that paper? Ermmm.. Light a fire, Wripe your backside? That's all it would be worth.


That's the exact point I'm making.  "Currency" would be worthless, whereas commodities and precious metals could still have value.



Reece said:


> As much as I disagree with him comparing, he is right.. Gold is only valuable to those who want it and what people want to pay for it.


Aah, but you're looking at it from the wrong angle.  It is exceptionally rare for the value of finite resources such as gold/silver to change.  What's actually happening is a fluctuation in the market and economy - just because the price of gold goes from 100$ per troy pound to 500$ per troy pound (purely speculative numbers) doesn't mean that gold's value has increased - it means the value of the dollar has decreased.  _Never_ use an issued currency as the base for comparison.


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## lazyt (Aug 27, 2013)

In the end all currency is an abstract ideal. Is there really enough gold to cover the trillions owed by the major powers?

For gold to have a value you have to be above a subsistence type economy. Face it, you can't eat it. It makes lousy weapons or tools. All it has going for it is looks and electrical conductivity with lack of corrosion.


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## bizzard (Aug 27, 2013)

For all these years, we have been using paper currency, which also doesn't have a value as such. Its just a printed paper. That's what I feel for bitcoin too. As paper currency succeeded for this long and still holds good, chances are there for bitcoin too to be widely used in future. After all, one advantage I found is that I doesn't have country boundaries.


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## drmike (Aug 27, 2013)

> For gold to have a value you have to be above a subsistence type economy.


For the common person, somewhat true.    Although acquiring gold as a person under such, would radically improve your ability to provide for necessities.

Arguably for the poorest nothing has any value.  Their needs to exist are the priority.  However the needs are facilitated typically though commerce and transactions of stored wealth instruments (well in theory) --- paper money and coin.  Some countries still in precious metals.

I bet if we go backwards in modern civilized history, the basis of money is probably dictated to be measured precisely in amounts of gold and/or silver. 

Now, if someone could counterfeit gold, they'd be rich in paper to presumably buy real god


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## Aldryic C'boas (Aug 27, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> I bet if we go backwards in modern civilized history, the basis of money is probably dictated to be measured precisely in amounts of gold and/or silver.


Wouldn't have to go too far back.  Up until the 30s or so, all US currency claimed "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private.", and also roughly stated "and may be exchanged for X".  I don't recall the exact wording (there was an interesting History Channel article on it awhile back), but essentially stated that paper bills could be redeemed for their current value in gold at specific locations - ie, Treasury.  Note that the 'and may be exchanged' bit has vanished from US bills >_>

EDIT:  Found it.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_dollar#Gold_standard


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## acd (Aug 27, 2013)

Aldryic C said:


> [Gold] is the basis of exchange for most national currencies[..]


Out of curiosity, besides the Swiss Franc, can you name 2 national currencies that continue to use a precious metal standard? Afaik, most countries explicitly moved away from such things because they like the ability to devalue their own currency if needed. This doesn't diminish the validity of your point though.


Aldryic C said:


> Aah, but you're looking at it from the wrong angle.  It is exceptionally rare for the value of finite resources such as gold/silver to change.  What's actually happening is a fluctuation in the market and economy - just because the price of gold goes from 100$ per troy pound to 500$ per troy pound (purely speculative numbers) doesn't mean that gold's value has increased - it means the value of the dollar has decreased...


Comparing the value of gold to the consumer price index seems like a reasonable metric, however. It will approximate how much goods you could buy with some weight of gold, assuming a perfect trade (and the cpi calculation didn't change year to year, which it sometimes does). That illustrates that there have been some fairly large changes in gold price over the last couple decades.
I think the value of btc is that it isn't dependent on a government and while conversion to and from it can be regulated, btc exchange generally cannot be, without controlling an extremely large portion of the compute network (or making use of BTC as a currency illegal, or simply taxing the ever-loving crap out of block generation). No, btc trade is not anonymous, but how often do you deal in cash or barter recently? They're the only exchanges that do offer "complete" anonymity, and they're just not convenient. (Note, things like zerocoin do offer perfect transaction anonymity, if adopted, but I'm not sure that's a desirable feature.)

The key problem with btc is exchanging it for goods and services. There is a minimum latency on the order of an hour to prevent double-spend and that's just not reasonable in a world where you want instantaneous trust exchanges for money and immediate gratification for goods. That pretty much blows adoption out of the water for physical exchange (imagine waiting for even the 1st comfirm in line at McDonalds or the gas station) unless something massive changes with bitcoin's organization and trust model. I trust the security problems with the wallet can be resolved, though history shows long term trust in crypto models usually stabs you in the back.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Aug 27, 2013)

acd said:


> Out of curiosity, besides the Swiss Franc, can you name 2 national currencies that continue to use a precious metal standard? Afaik, most countries explicitly moved away from such things because they like the ability to devalue their own currency if needed. This doesn't diminish the validity of your point though.


You're correct, I cannot.  Truthfully, I'm having to dig through memories of the years I spent perusing libraries to recall this information - I would have to do new research to familiarize myself with current currency bases.  Admittedly, I've intentionally distanced myself economic and political study recently, as it tends to erode my already vastly diminished faith in humanity.


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## Lanarchy (Aug 27, 2013)

I don't find value in goats or chickens, but some people use that as currency.

Also, more people use it than just Anon and Silk Road.

I think it's a cool thing, and I embrace crypto currencies.

Yes, it takes a little work on securing your funds. No, not only 20 year old neckbeards run Bitcoin. There are plenty of 'legit' businessmen, who do wear ties. You're just looking in the wrong places, or listening to enthusiasts. That's like saying 'All I see are 14 year old girls at NSYNC concerts, I've never seen a middle aged guy in a suit' That just doesn't make sense and is a rash generalization without merit.


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## kaniini (Aug 27, 2013)

KuJoe said:


> My vote goes towards the "waste of time and money" belief. This is based on the fact that I don't have time to waste making sure my digital wallet doesn't get hacked and all of my money is wasted.
> 
> I don't have anything against it personally, but I have no interest to ever use it since I have zero confidence in it.


Your wallet is just a keypair.  Once generated, you can move it to a USB stick and delete it from any hosts.  Then, just use the USB stick copy when you want to access your wallet.


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## KuJoe (Aug 27, 2013)

kaniini said:


> Your wallet is just a keypair.  Once generated, you can move it to a USB stick and delete it from any hosts.  Then, just use the USB stick copy when you want to access your wallet.


With all of the exploits lately I still have zero confidence in it.


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## perennate (Aug 27, 2013)

KuJoe said:


> With all of the exploits lately I still have zero confidence in it.


By "all of the exploits" do you mean "one exploit involving Android"?


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## ICPH (Aug 28, 2013)

i think bitcoin is still too young, it need to stabilise maybe, if it ever happen


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## mitgib (Aug 28, 2013)

Aldryic C said:


> Did you seriously just compare a fabricated 'currency' (and I use that term very loosely) to a precious metal that's been used in trade for thousands of years, has an established and finite value, and is the basis of exchange for most national currencies?


You need to study money a little deeper, the US Dollar has been the worlds reserve currency since after World War II, the US was taken off of the gold standard by Nixon when the Viet Nam war bankrupted the country at the doing of the Federal Reserve.  Only recently has china been executing trade agreements with other countries to base trade on the Yuan as the Chinese see the house of cards having the US Dollar as the world's reserve currency is while we are net importers.



Aldryic C said:


> You're correct, I cannot.  Truthfully, I'm having to dig through memories of the years I spent perusing libraries to recall this information - I would have to do new research to familiarize myself with current currency bases.  Admittedly, I've intentionally distanced myself economic and political study recently, as it tends to erode my already vastly diminished faith in humanity.


I wasn;t aware the Swiss Franc was still real money backed.  but all the G20 governments are using fractional reserve banking and have fake money manipulated by a non-governmental central bank.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Aug 28, 2013)

Yup, I spent a bit of time refreshing myself on how all of that plays out yesterday.  I remembered the gold standard being dropped (and later re-adopted in various forms) after the great wars, but was unaware of the Nixon-era++ developments.


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## Abdussamad (Aug 31, 2013)

Bitcoin is awesome. You guys might want to look into it a little closer.


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