# Billing system discussion



## jhadley (May 26, 2013)

I had a discussion going on LET before the hack and I wanted to restart the discussion as it's extremely relevant right now.

WHMCS and HostBill (and also ClientExec and Ubersmith) have recently done a lot to scare their customers. I've got a billing system that's fairly solid and I've decided to make it my primary focus to make it as good as possible. I've found some funding, hired additional developers and am working with UI designers to create something that really stands out, based on a community-driven ethos of unencrypted code, low prices, frequent updates and generally listening to what people want.

To give you a quick summary, I've pushed forward the following features:

 - Multiple currencies

 - Multiple tax bands

 - cPanel and SolusVM integration

 - Google Checkout, 2Checkout, Amazon SimplePay and Stripe integration

 - A better order form

 - A REST API, and iPhone and Android apps

 - Translation files

 - Reports page

 - UI redesign

As well as a new website.

In the last discussion the general consensus was that


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## Ivan (May 26, 2013)

Billr is a great name. Looking forward to see some screenshots, though


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## wdq (May 26, 2013)

Maybe make scripts that can import data from WHMCS/HostBill, and offer some sort of refugee discount.


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## RootNerds (May 26, 2013)

Well, reporting is a must for a billing system. Detailed forecasts and such are a must have in each billing system.

Then Tax and a little bit customization for every country (for example Europe, have different Invoice numbers for unpaid and paid invoices).

In general, I probably wouldn't switch to a billing system with less functionality than WHMCS. Across our 3 WHMCS installations, I used every function at least once...


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## rsk (May 26, 2013)

jhadley said:


> cPanel and SolusVM integration


 

Try to push a free panel like kloxo or a paid one directadmin?

An import tool will help you, by far!


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## Pmadd (May 26, 2013)

Love the name, it suits the product. If I ever had a use for a billing system I'd surely try it.


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## matt[scrdspd] (May 26, 2013)

Billr seems like a pretty decent name. It seems to be the name of an existing iPhone app tho, not sure if that bothers you or not.



wdq said:


> Maybe make scripts that can import data from WHMCS/HostBill, and offer some sort of refugee discount.


This. If you want to get adoption of this software you will probably have to have a good migration system for existing WHMCS users.


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## jhadley (May 26, 2013)

I'll try and get import scripts added as well. A refugee discount would be nice but the software is already very cheap. Would a small one be enough to influence your decision?



matt_securedspeed said:


> It seems to be the name of an existing iPhone app tho, not sure if that bothers you or not.



It's not such a problem for the web app, but it could be now that a mobile app is in the pipeline.


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## rds100 (May 26, 2013)

@jhadley so what do you think, how much would the whole project cost? I mean if it somehow becomes crowd funded and opensourced.


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## jhadley (May 26, 2013)

rds100 said:


> @jhadley so what do you think, how much would the whole project cost? I mean if it somehow becomes crowd funded and opensourced.


That's not really the aim but I suppose something in the region of


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## rds100 (May 26, 2013)

jhadley said:


> That's not really the aim but I suppose something in the region of


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## jhadley (May 26, 2013)

rds100 said:


> Doesn't seem unreasonable or impossible. Maybe this would be a good project to crowd fund, for the benefit of everyone. Providers can get rid of the horrible WHMCS, customers can be more relaxed about their details beeing stored in a more secure system, etc.


I'm open to this idea but I don't think it'll happen frankly.


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## jarland (May 26, 2013)

I'm watching with a lot of interest now that you're talking about panel integrations. I like the name, always have. The ios app developer can deal with it


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## RootNerds (May 26, 2013)

rds100 said:


> I mean if it somehow becomes crowd funded and opensourced.


That would definitively be great! There are enough closed-source systems out there on the market. As *@**jhadley* said he wants to be different than the other systems anyway, this would be a great way to go!


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## HalfEatenPie (May 26, 2013)

I'd like to request that instead of doing a one-off payment system to actually have payments required for upgrades and such.  

Why?

Because if I want to purchase a billing system I'd like to know that it'd be around long enough to constantly push out new updates and defend against new threats.  I feel like with one-off purchasing schemes are a great idea for the customer, but doesn't guarantee your continued investment in it's security and updates.  When it's a crucial piece of software that manages your clients, your income, etc. then you want to know that it'll be around for a while. 

My two cents.  I mean I'm interested in what you're bringing to the table, but I'd like to constantly send you money to ensure future development continues.  I mean everyone has to eat


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## jhadley (May 26, 2013)

HalfEatenPie said:


> I'd like to constantly send you money


 

Please, go right ahead 

So you'd prefer something like


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## netnub (May 26, 2013)

Pff, if I was you I'd charge $10/mo constant and do lifetime licenses for $200 unbranded, etc. you'll make a killing of a profit.


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## jhadley (May 26, 2013)

netnub said:


> Pff, if I was you I'd charge $10/mo constant and do lifetime licenses for $200 unbranded, etc. you'll make a killing of a profit.


Honestly, if I can make enough money to sustain the project, plus a little for me, and give people a great product and a good reason to switch, that'll be far more rewarding


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## Shados (May 30, 2013)

HalfEatenPie said:


> Because if I want to purchase a billing system I'd like to know that it'd be around long enough to constantly push out new updates and defend against new threats.


 

+1 to this. Offering a 'lifetime' license is fine and all, but consider having a low-cost regular payment option as well - both because it means you're a bit more likely to continue working on it in the future, and also because it gives people a way to try it out with minimal initial cost to them.


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## jhadley (May 30, 2013)

Shados said:


> +1 to this. Offering a 'lifetime' license is fine and all, but consider having a low-cost regular payment option as well - both because it means you're a bit more likely to continue working on it in the future, and also because it gives people a way to try it out with minimal initial cost to them.


Trouble with that is I would need to encrypt the source and protect the software.


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## Reece-DM (May 30, 2013)

Open source to closed source?

Also have you thought about import scripts?

I like the idea and is good to see someone willing to help the smaller guys.


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## jhadley (May 30, 2013)

Still considering pricing models and source control possibilities.

Import scripts are already on the list


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## Sonwebhost (May 30, 2013)

Good price also it has to be updated online thanks


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## Shados (May 30, 2013)

jhadley said:


> Trouble with that is I would need to encrypt the source and protect the software.


Do you? Frankly, it kind of seems that people unscrupulous and cheap enough will always be able to find an unencrypted/cracked/nulled version of any given software, or they simply won't use it. People who would pay for it will do so regardless of how easy it may be to rip off.


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## jhadley (May 30, 2013)

Shados said:


> Do you? Frankly, it kind of seems that people unscrupulous and cheap enough will always be able to find an unencrypted/cracked/nulled version of any given software, or they simply won't use it. People who would pay for it will do so regardless of how easy it may be to rip off.


I don't really know what I think on this subject, or on the subject of pricing. Still weighing up ideas, but I feel I should do _something_ to protect the software to at least discourage piracy and make it clear it's commercial software.

I'm approaching an expert about various protection options. I'm also considering something like RightSignature though I think that may be more offputting than normal avenues.


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## walesmd (May 31, 2013)

I don't see a problem with you encrypting and/or running licenses for those that pay monthly. Want it unencrypted and open? Pony up! "But what will keep monthly customers from just using the other version?" you ask? Nothing. The exact same thing preventing me from downloading nulled copies of everything else out there. Let honest people pay and don't worry with the rest - a pirate wasn't going to pay so you didn't lose a sale.


I'm friends with the founder of PancakeApp (I did some of the development work as well); if you wanted some insider tips from someone who had been there I could strange an introduction.


Finally, if I forget to PM you mind reminding me (I'm mobile now)? I think you'll be interested in something I'm working on that should hit testing in 6-8 weeks.


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## jhadley (May 31, 2013)

walesmd said:


> I don't see a problem with you encrypting and/or running licenses for those that pay monthly. Want it unencrypted and open? Pony up! "But what will keep monthly customers from just using the other version?" you ask? Nothing. The exact same thing preventing me from downloading nulled copies of everything else out there. Let honest people pay and don't worry with the rest - a pirate wasn't going to pay so you didn't lose a sale.
> 
> 
> I'm friends with the founder of PancakeApp (I did some of the development work as well); if you wanted some insider tips from someone who had been there I could strange an introduction.
> ...


I would definitely be interested in asking your contact one main question - why they chose the pricing model they did. I've talked to some 'experts' (a multimillionaire investor + a top PHP developer and creator of a framework), who are recommending SaaS as a method of source and quality control, as well as to lower the barrier to entry. It's not what I had in mind originally but the advice coming from who it's coming from, I'm doing a bit of testing in that area as well.

Also, I didn't get your PM.


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## Shados (May 31, 2013)

jhadley said:


> I would definitely be interested in asking your contact one main question - why they chose the pricing model they did. I've talked to some 'experts' (a multimillionaire investor + a top PHP developer and creator of a framework), who are recommending SaaS as a method of source and quality control, as well as to lower the barrier to entry. It's not what I had in mind originally but the advice coming from who it's coming from, I'm doing a bit of testing in that area as well.
> 
> Also, I didn't get your PM.


If you're doing that, maybe think about monthly fee for using your hosted service, and free or one-time fee for self-hosted variant?

EDIT: Also, keep in mind that going that route is a _lot_ more work for you, and much of it on-going/constant, so it's not something I'd recommend unless you're really interested in continuing to work on this project for quite some time.


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## jhadley (May 31, 2013)

Shados said:


> If you're doing that, maybe think about monthly fee for using your hosted service, and free or one-time fee for self-hosted variant?
> 
> EDIT: Also, keep in mind that going that route is a _lot_ more work for you, and much of it on-going/constant, so it's not something I'd recommend unless you're really interested in continuing to work on this project for quite some time.


Yeah, I do intend to continue work on Billr for the foreseeable future. Obviously there's a lot of work involved to manage the platform and add functionality to the software to allow for lots of separate instances, but I have a team now and I'll probably pay the hosting company to manage everything once it's live.

If I do go down the SaaS route, I think it will be the only route. Still working out what it would cost though as obviously I would want to keep it cheap for small businesses and charge heavy users more.

Also there's a lot of fun to be had optimising the hell out of Billr


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## jhadley (Jun 5, 2013)

Some progress on the website:

http://www.billr.io/

And lots of progress on the app, but I'll keep that to myself 

Let me know what y'all think.


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## KuJoe (Jun 5, 2013)

There is no doubt in my mind that your code will be sold/given away elsewhere once you release it. There are people out there who will use a hacked Paypal account, get the code, and give it away online. My advice is focus on paid support verses a paid product.

Offer a demo/trial (14-30 days?)

One-time fee for the open source product and 1 year of support ($100-$200?)

Annual fee for updates/support ($50-$75?)

Build a forum for community support (free) and you'll be covered.

You can go the monthly route, but the people who aren't willing to pay the one-time fee will most likely be more geared towards the pirated versions so you'd be better off investing your time not having to deal with a license system or encoding for monthly clients. The time you would spend coding a licensing system can be better spent building the billing system (unless you were going to include the licensing system into Billr, in which case somebody will take the source code and hack it and make future use of the licensing system useless).

So again, focus on support. Maybe considering offer different support tiers if you have the staffing for it.


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## VPN.SH (Jun 5, 2013)

Like the site . Really looking forward to see what Billr will be able to do in this market, or where else it'll likely be used.

Not followed the project amazingly closely but I recall it was originally designed for freelancers. I'm assuming it's now moving towards a WHMCS/HostBill alternative?


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## jhadley (Jun 5, 2013)

@KuJoe I've nearly decided to offer this as a hosted app now to avoid those pitfalls, and because I think it will allow the product to be better.

@liamwithers I think now is the right time for new hosting system what with the issues WHMCS and HostBill have been facing, so I've added some hosting features. I don't know if it'll ever have the same number of modules as WHMCS or HostBill but I'm confident it will win in terms of security and UI.


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## KuJoe (Jun 5, 2013)

A hosted app for billing/client manage will be a huge turn-off for a lot of companies. There are privacy, security, and regulatory concerns associated with it that some cannot overcome. I do feel it will open a new market and will probably benefit you in the long run, so I say stick with it but I won't be able to take advantage of it. 

One suggestion is allow for clients to do their own backups and have an "exit strategy" in the event of a disaster or extended downtime. The majority of our clients who purchase DDOS protection do it for their billing/client management portals for a reason. I don't want to think what would happen if 10, 50, 100, or 1000 hosting companies were impacted from the same level of attacks we see against a single WHMCS install (I'm not saying you won't be able to handle 30Gbps attacks, I'm just saying it would be cheaper to avoid them).


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## jhadley (Jun 5, 2013)

At the moment I'm leaning toward using a separate IP for each company, to help automate the SSL deployment process, and to reduce the impact of a null route.


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## rds100 (Jun 5, 2013)

Having one server host the billing systems for many companies makes that server a very "interesting" target...


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## jhadley (Jun 6, 2013)

rds100 said:


> Having one server host the billing systems for many companies makes that server a very "interesting" target...


Obviously the server is going to be suitably locked down, but also CC data are stored off-server.


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## HalfEatenPie (Jun 6, 2013)

jhadley said:


> Obviously the server is going to be suitably locked down


 

Yeah...  I don't feel secure with that personally.


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## jhadley (Jun 6, 2013)

HalfEatenPie said:


> Yeah...  I don't feel secure with that personally.


What would make you feel secure?


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## Francisco (Jun 6, 2013)

A hosted solution isn't going to work.

All it's going to take is you hosting a client that people want down and they'll start hitting the *rest* of your ip's until that client is offline. Are you going to pay out for 10 - 15Gbit/sec of peak burst flood protection? Probably not unless you're rolling in some serious change for it. 

This isn't even going to cover the security issues users will have with their client data. You could sanitize everything till the cows come home but not too long ago PHP had an exploit that allowed a user to *break out* of all regexp, making that security null/void. Do you want that kind of responsibility on your hands? What are you going to do when someone discovers a 0 day in an application?

By going with a hosted solution you're making yourself a *huge* gold mine for fraudsters/hackers to target.

Talk with jarland about the horrors of using a hosted solution for his old VPS panel before he went to Solus.

Francisco


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## libro22 (Jun 6, 2013)

No vote for me too for a hosted solution. I prefer hosting them in my own server.

Please include a nice dev kit for custom modules. Will you do an owned license with free dev license business model?

The option in hostbill (custom automated tasks) where you can send an email or open a support ticket before/after X days of creation/suspension is a nice feature. I use that to follow up on new clients, upsell and send security reminders.


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## jhadley (Jun 14, 2013)

Hi everyone,

It's been a busy week! Plenty more functionality has been added to Billr and we're nearly ready for a very early beta.

We're inviting VPSBoard businesses to register their interest for the beta. We're looking for small businesses who aren't happy with what they've got and may, depending on their beta experience, be willing to work with us to shape Billr and give them what they need.

The service is a hosted app (though you can download a client area to host yourself if you want transparency). It normally costs


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## Supicioso (Jun 14, 2013)

Just signed up for the beta. This looks very promising, the hosted option scared me a little, but it's great you have two options instead of just that one.


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## Pebsie (Jun 15, 2013)

If you can provide a payment gateway for PayPal and make it cheaper than PayPal and as pretty as BoxBilling the I'm all in.


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## jhadley (Jun 15, 2013)

Pebsie said:


> If you can provide a payment gateway for PayPal and make it cheaper than PayPal and as pretty as BoxBilling the I'm all in.


Not sure what you mean by cheaper than Paypal, but there's no competition between Billr and BoxBilling. Billr is the higher quality product and BoxBilling is cheaper.

A few screenshots of the new UI:

http://uploadir.com/u/04godjva

http://uploadir.com/u/cm370a4x


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## Supicioso (Jun 15, 2013)

So long as you don't make the entire theme dark, I'm all in. Bad eyes and such. Dark themes make me strain harder then I should, plus it gives me a headache. Any updates on when the beta will get around?


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## Mon5t3r (Jun 15, 2013)

I have switched our billing system from WHMCS to Blesta, but for $75/one time payment i'll consider it.


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## Pebsie (Jun 16, 2013)

jhadley said:


> Not sure what you mean by cheaper than Paypal, but there's no competition between Billr and BoxBilling. Billr is the higher quality product and BoxBilling is cheaper.
> 
> A few screenshots of the new UI:
> 
> ...


Woops my bad, looks like I mistyped due to tiredness 

I meant cheaper than WHMCS but an equal price is fine.

Those screenshots look _very _promising!


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## jhadley (Jun 16, 2013)

JaredT90 said:


> So long as you don't make the entire theme dark, I'm all in. Bad eyes and such. Dark themes make me strain harder then I should, plus it gives me a headache. Any updates on when the beta will get around?


No, only the top menu is dark. I'm pulling out all the stops to get an early beta out on Friday.



Mon5t3r said:


> I have switched our billing system from WHMCS to Blesta, but for $75/one time payment i'll consider it.


It's a hosted solution (or hybrid-hosted), so unfortunately there's no one-time option. This is to allow us to do more with the software - integration with other SaaS apps etc. The plan at the moment is to offer the beta completely free, then a lifetime discount for those continuing, then the full


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