# So, I got a 14U server rack that fits in my closet...



## shovenose (Sep 4, 2013)

Next step is to put something in it. I would not use this for anything important nor would I sell these under the ShoveHost name. Basically just dirt cheap dedicated servers. Strictly unmanaged, of course. Heck, I wouldn't even pay for WHMCS - just use something free for the 9 servers I'd be selling.

Here's my idea:

-1U (well, not really) Comcast Business IP Gateway

-1U 48-port managed switch (already have)

-6x Atom 1U Supermicro short servers with dual core atom, 4GB RAM, and 32GB SSD

-3x Intel i3 short servers. I've already got the components for the first one, i3-2100, MicroATX mobo, 4GB RAM, power supply, 500GB HDD, just need a 2U case and that is cheap. I can get more of those parts.

Now, would you pay $20/month for those atoms?

And $40 for one of those i3 servers? Perhaps $60 with a 1TB HDD and 8GB RAM and a slightly better i3? Might not be the best place to ask since a lot of people here are from LowEndTalk and thus notoriously unreasonably cheap, but I'm confident I can get some answers here.

Unmetered shared bandwidth with a fair use policy - don't hog the whole connection 24/7. I'd have one of the fastest Comcast business plan, which is 100Mbps down, 20mbps up, but in my experience with other people having that you get more than that. Each server would include 1 IP.

Just brainstorming, nothing set in stone. Might just scrap the idea of selling services out of it and use it for personal hosting with a couple of the i3 servers if nobody is interested.

I found a way to buy 6 new old stock APC 1200VA UPSs for $20 each and 1 used but with new batteries APC 1500VA UPS for slightly more, plus my old APC 1500VPS UPS, so that would provide the power. Quite a bit of it, in fact, so if the power goes out here (which it's only done once in the more than I year I've lived here) the servers could stay up for quite a long time before there are any issues.

When/if I move out into my own place I'll simply take the rack with me, have a "planned network maintenance", and take 50% off that month. Would be fair.


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## HalfEatenPie (Sep 4, 2013)

Maybe you should also add if people would get dedicated IP or if it'd be NATed or something.  Looks interesting at least!


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## shovenose (Sep 4, 2013)

HalfEatenPie said:


> Maybe you should also add if people would get dedicated IP or if it'd be NATed or something.  Looks interesting at least!


Yeah, each dedicated server would come with 1 dedicated IP. Thanks! My friend who is Cisco certified and lives nearby would set up the network to make sure it's done right, so no worries on that. Also, forgot to add that I'm in Fairfax, California, if location matters.


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## Damian (Sep 4, 2013)

I would not, as I can get a $20-ish Atom server from quite a few sources, that are in a regular datacenter and I get 100mbit up/down.


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## WebSearchingPro (Sep 4, 2013)

So... your going to be hosting clients out of your closet??

Btw, I've seen you around more what happened to your statement here.

http://vpsboard.com/topic/1329-website-proofreading-7/?p=21911

(just curious and this is posted in off topic)


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## SkylarM (Sep 4, 2013)

So you want to host clients out of a Closet? Who in their right mind would ever pay for that?


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## clarity (Sep 4, 2013)

The upload speed is too low to be shared with that number of servers. You are talking about 2mbps per server not including what you use at your home.


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## qps (Sep 4, 2013)

I wouldn't count on Comcast being very agreeable to allowing you to use your connection for hosting servers.  They don't intend their connections to be used like this - they are intended for web browsing.


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## 365Networks (Sep 4, 2013)




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## clarity (Sep 4, 2013)

qps said:


> I wouldn't count on Comcast being very agreeable to allowing you to use your connection for hosting servers.  They don't intend their connections to be used like this - they are intended for web browsing.


He says that he has the business plan. They are a little more flexible on that.


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## HostUS-Alexander (Sep 4, 2013)

Your room would be loud as hell.


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## WebSearchingPro (Sep 4, 2013)

HostUS-Alexander said:


> Your room would be loud as hell.


Its in a closet, He can just shut the door and theyll eventually shut down due to thermal protection.  Easy way to shut down your servers if you have them laying in a closet.


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## qps (Sep 4, 2013)

dclardy said:


> He says that he has the business plan. They are a little more flexible on that.


One DDoS or a few abuse/spam complaints and they'll probably term his connection.


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## blergh (Sep 4, 2013)




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## shovenose (Sep 4, 2013)

WebSearchingPro said:


> Its in a closet, He can just shut the door and theyll eventually shut down due to thermal protection.  Easy way to shut down your servers if you have them laying in a closet.


True. But Atoms and i3 servers with decently efficient power supplies and single SSDs or hard drives, don't use much power and thus don't create much heat. The atom servers can run fanless or at least minimum fan speed so I'm not too worried about noise.


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## manacit (Sep 4, 2013)

9 servers sharing 20mbit up (and 100mbit down for that matter), hosted in a closet on Comcast business? And you think anyone is going to pay $60 per month?? 

L O L


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## RiotSecurity (Sep 4, 2013)

Lmfao, you must be high today. My donation for you is ear plugs.

You're welcome.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Sep 4, 2013)

The logistics here don't seem to have been planned out at all.  To break it down:

*Power*: Your parents would be _pissed_ to see their electric bill with that gear running.  Even if you live on your own, the electric costs would be far more than you could make from trying to sell out the gear.

*Heat:* You want to put this in a _closet_?  I have a small rack in my office that runs most of our networking, VoIP, and misc network storage at Coke.  And even this small bit of gear puts out enough heat that my office has it's own dedicated A/C unit to keep things cool.  Closets have zero air flow.

*Noise: *Pretty obvious.  And if your plan on eliminating noise is to 'close the door', then see the above.

*Redundancy (Power)*: You would need fairly massive APC units, since generators are obviously out of the question.  These tie right back into my first point.  The alternative is _not_ having backup power, in which case any time your house has an outage, all this gear goes offline.  I hope you like fscking.

*Redundancy (Network):* A single business line?  Absurd.  Residential/"Business" ISPs are finicky at the BEST of times.  Not only will you likely never be able to deliver what you promise on network speeds, but you'd be very lucky to actually hit 90%+ uptime any given month.

This isn't even touching situations such as professional hands-on tech work, parts shipping, or the fact that nobody is going to trust "gear running from my house, yo".  Instead of trying to make a quick buck from it, _maybe_ rack a single 1U and use it for dev/learning.


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## SeriesN (Sep 4, 2013)

Besides what Aldry said, what would you do when it comes to network attacks?


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## acd (Sep 4, 2013)

shovenose said:


> Here's my idea: [..]
> -6x Atom 1U Supermicro short servers with dual core atom, 4GB RAM, and 32GB SSD
> 
> -3x Intel i3 short servers. I've already got the components for the first one, i3-2100, MicroATX mobo, 4GB RAM, power supply, 500GB HDD, just need a 2U case and that is cheap. I can get more of those parts.
> ...


My guess is the atom servers are D525 half-racks that you can get on ebay for ~350 fully loaded. Nearest equivalent in north america is twice that price at OVH (bhs), but at least there, you get 5TB and 4 IPs, and they're more than twice the resources at just under twice the price. So maybe if you were low budget and didn't want to pick up a semi-dedicated, that might have some value.

40$ for the i3s, no way; OVH (bhs) is a much better deal even with their crazy network. At 60$/mo, even more no way.

Around 60$/mo, I would start looking at buying and colocating a server because my needs have exceeded "cheap". I would consider fdcservers (40$/mo for 10mbps, but no redundant power and crappy bw mix, don't go there) before I considered your closet/garage/whatever.

Post is provided to reference nearest-priced well-known competitor that isn't in a closet. (ok, you got me, FDC is close to a closet.)


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## Jade (Sep 4, 2013)

Aldryic C said:


> The logistics here don't seem to have been planned out at all.  To break it down:
> 
> *Power*: Your parents would be _pissed_ to see their electric bill with that gear running.  Even if you live on your own, the electric costs would be far more than you could make from trying to sell out the gear.
> 
> ...


You pretty much summed it all up


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## drmike (Sep 4, 2013)

manacit said:


> 9 servers sharing 20mbit up (and 100mbit down for that matter), hosted in a closet on Comcast business? And you think anyone is going to pay $60 per month??
> 
> L O L


I'm late to the party.

One question, is this a Comcast Business connection?  If so, well, not entirely unbelievable.

Folks poke at the line speed vs. a mere 9 servers.

I think lots of folks would choke on reality if they knew what some providers were running total bandwidth capacity versus their perceived mass of customers.   Can anyone say single gigabit uplink?

$20 a month is too much for a single homed host with lack of redundancy on multiple levels.  There is issue with IP allocation also.

It's a real low end model, so expect resistance unless the money is low end.  (i.e. Atom at < $10/mo).


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## wdq (Sep 4, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> It's a real low end model, so expect resistance unless the money is low end.  (i.e. Atom at < $10/mo).


I agree with this. Assuming you have just enough bandwidth, and the uptime is decent, the price would still have to be significantly lower than what another provider would charge for a similar dedicated server that's in a proper datacenter.

Not very many people are going to take a risk just to save a few dollars per month on a dedicated server.


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## qps (Sep 4, 2013)

Also, something to consider is that if power goes out in your area, it's pretty likely that your Comcast service will go out too if the outage lasts very long, regardless of if you have battery backup.


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## NodeBytes (Sep 4, 2013)

lol.  opcorn:


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## KuJoe (Sep 4, 2013)

Having been forced to use Comcast for 6 months against my will, I would say this is a BAD IDEA. Aside from Comcast's conflicting statements about bandwidth caps, their routing makes me cry sometimes and their use of throttling makes me down right angry (they throttle ALL encrypted traffic so if you want to run a VPN server or use SSL on a webserver expect 1/10th of your total speed).

Back to the bandwidth cap, I was told by 2 techs, 1 supervisor, and their website that both Residential and Business plans have a 300GB cap before they turn you off while at the same time using over 400GB of bandwidth in one month, so maybe this is loosely enforced but not something I would risk with paying clients.


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## drmike (Sep 4, 2013)

KuJoe said:


> that both Residential and Business plans have a 300GB cap before they turn you off


I hope this is some regional issue.  Not a Comcrap subscriber, but such low limits on plans across the board, that's just BS on their part if true.

Now if they want to bill based on use or something, I guess I can revise my dislike.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Sep 4, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> I hope this is some regional issue.  Not a Comcrap subscriber, but such low limits on plans across the board, that's just BS on their part if true.
> 
> Now if they want to bill based on use or something, I guess I can revise my dislike.


I've seen a lot of residential ISPs start to do this.  My own, SuddenLink (used to be Cox Communications here) recently started capping at 250GB.  Finally got them to raise mine to 500GB after I showed them I could legitimately blow through 250GB in a day or two.


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## MartinD (Sep 4, 2013)

No. Just no.


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## notFound (Sep 4, 2013)

shovenose said:


> True. But Atoms and i3 servers with decently efficient power supplies and single SSDs or hard drives, don't use much power and thus don't create much heat. The atom servers can run fanless or at least minimum fan speed so I'm not too worried about noise.


What happens when your pink knickers catch fire in the closet? But seriously, that's why datacenters exist, they have cooling, they have fire prevention, and the list goes on...


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## KuJoe (Sep 4, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> I hope this is some regional issue.  Not a Comcrap subscriber, but such low limits on plans across the board, that's just BS on their part if true.
> 
> Now if they want to bill based on use or something, I guess I can revise my dislike.


http://customer.comcast.com/help-and-support/internet/data-usage-what-are-the-different-plans-launching

I should point out that this is not enforced (to my knowledge) as I've never had a single month where I used less than 300GB of bandwidth.

http://n3rd.info/upl/comcast_usage082013.png

http://n3rd.info/upl/aug2013_traffic.png


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## drmike (Sep 4, 2013)

Yeah, I use to run quite a bit of traffic and use to have web sites hosted on site.  On site use to be  my customized block garage.  Yes AC, yes generator backup, yes battery backup, yes multiple upstreams (although not pulled from far enough points to avoid every scenario).

Ran that for years without any real issue.

Only real reason I quit that was due to moving elsewhere and no longer was an option.   Frankly, I'll take an on site server any day of the week.

Will I trust someone else to do that?   Maybe.  You have a generator with auto transfer switch to invest in.  You need another upstream too.


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## drmike (Sep 4, 2013)

KuJoe said:


> http://customer.comcast.com/help-and-support/internet/data-usage-what-are-the-different-plans-launching
> 
> I should point out that this is not enforced (to my knowledge) as I've never had a single month where I used less than 300GB of bandwidth.


Uggh!

We need to split out the Comcast stuff  World of hate for them and limits.

Take it in those markets they have an effective monopoly?


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## KuJoe (Sep 4, 2013)

I know in my area and most of the larger areas around me our options are Comcast or CenturyLink and it's sad to say that CenturyLink has an even worse reputation than Comcast. For my apartment complex I am limited to Comcast only which is why I've been looking at 3G/4G providers like FreedomPop as a backup but cell service around here is hit or miss at best.


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## nunim (Sep 4, 2013)

Damian said:


> I would not, as I can get a $20-ish Atom server from quite a few sources, that are in a regular datacenter and I get 100mbit up/down.


This...

Why would anyone want to buy a server in your closet when they could get the same spec'd server at similar prices in a real datacenter?

This reminds me of all those WHT posts back in the early days about people "building" their own datacenter.

With the costs involved why would you not just colo that gear in a real DC and then rent it out?  I wouldn't trust you to run your own network, I surely wouldn't trust you to run your own "datacenter".  To even attempt something like this you would surely need FIOS or a similar real high speed internet plan, not Comcast's 100/30..  

BTW, is your rack from Ikea?


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## SeriesN (Sep 4, 2013)

nunim said:


> This...
> 
> Why would anyone want to buy a server in your closet when they could get the same spec'd server at similar prices in a real datacenter?
> 
> ...


Damn! That looks real useful. I need one for my room. I live a messy life.


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## Tux (Sep 4, 2013)

KuJoe said:


> I know in my area and most of the larger areas around me our options are Comcast or CenturyLink and it's sad to say that CenturyLink has an even worse reputation than Comcast. For my apartment complex I am limited to Comcast only which is why I've been looking at 3G/4G providers like FreedomPop as a backup but cell service around here is hit or miss at best.


I can tell you that Charter is just as bad. In fact, it's worse because you get Cogent routes whichever way, so you're fucked 6 ways from Sunday. Cell coverage here sucks as well, and our only other landline choice is AT&T (who annoyingly call us wanting us to switch - we just give them the middle finger).


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## SeriesN (Sep 4, 2013)

Infinity said:


> What happens when your pink knickers catch fire in the closet? But seriously, that's why datacenters exist, they have cooling, they have fire prevention, and the list goes on...


FDC had shit


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## shovenose (Sep 4, 2013)

Comcast is great here. 250GB residential cap is not enforced. I know because I use way more than that per month.


Friend has Comcast Business, gone down twice, each time less than half an hour, in a year.


What if I ditched the i3 thing, and just did 11 1u atoms for $20/month. Would people buy them?


Barely covers comcast not to mention power.


Again, right now the issues are:


-bandwidfh


-heat


Noise is non issue since the atoms can be fanless except for psu fan which is quiet.


Power is non issue because as I san I can get a lot of APC UPSs.


Have one for network stuff and 2-3 servers each on the rest.


Can I daisy chain UPS?


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## Tux (Sep 4, 2013)

shovenose said:


> Can I daisy chain UPS?


I would not recommend this. Just no.


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## MannDude (Sep 4, 2013)

I think it's a good idea for learning networking, but not the most ideal situation for a business as others have pointed out.

Should just use Raspberry Pi's instead.


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## fapvps (Sep 4, 2013)

I don't see how this can be used for anything even half way serious.


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## shovenose (Sep 4, 2013)

ok fine, how much would you pay for a dedicated raspberry pi? I'm open for suggestions on what would be useful.


Could fit 4 per rackmount easily.


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## MannDude (Sep 4, 2013)

shovenose said:


> ok fine, how much would you pay for a dedicated raspberry pi? I'm open for suggestions on what would be useful.


Not a lot really. It's nice to have dedicated RAM and all, but the processors on them suck and MySQL is a beast that maxes out the CPU easily. =/

Less than what I'd pay for a 512MB OpenVZ or KVM VPS, is what I'd pay for a Raspberry Pi.

I'd still probably utilize what you have as a learning project to gain experience to be listed on a future resume or use whatever hardware you may own and collocate it direct with a datacenter.


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## fapvps (Sep 4, 2013)

It is possible to buy a 1/4 rack for ~$150 with power and plenty of bandwidth. You will pay close to that for your connection plus electricity...


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## shovenose (Sep 4, 2013)

MannDude said:


> Not a lot really. It's nice to have dedicated RAM and all, but the processors on them suck and MySQL is a beast that maxes out the CPU easily. =/
> 
> Less than what I'd pay for a 512MB OpenVZ or KVM VPS, is what I'd pay for a Raspberry Pi.
> 
> I'd still probably utilize what you have as a learning project to gain experience to be listed on a future resume or use whatever hardware you may own and collocate it direct with a datacenter.


Yeah.

So $5/month for a dedicated Raspberry pi? I could do 48 of them (since that's what my switch is).

48x5 = $240. That'll cover the connection and power.

I really have no intention to make a profit with this at this point, but to learn and provide something useful.

To sum up the thread so far:

-i3 is too expensive and would be wasted because of lack of bandwidth and would create too much heat

-Atoms are not interesting, expensive for what they are, and would not cover costs really. And probably still create too much heat.

-Raspberry Pis or similar would be the best option.


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## KuJoe (Sep 4, 2013)

Dacentec offers a 1/4 cabinet at $150/month (less than $16 per U) and it includes 100Mbps unmetered on a 1Gbps port (multi-homed) and 5Amps of power. A 1U Intel Atom uses less than 0.5Amps of power so you have more power than you have space.

GoRACK offers 10U for $99/month and you can upgrade to 100Mbps unmetered for $25 so that's only $124/month for 10U of space + bandwidth and 3Amps.

According to Comcast, you're looking at $199.95/month just for 100Mbps down, 20Mbps up so you're already wasting money and losing redundancy if you continue this path.


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## GVH-Jon (Sep 4, 2013)

You can't be serious right now ...


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## shovenose (Sep 4, 2013)

KuJoe said:


> Dacentec offers a 1/4 cabinet at $150/month (less than $16 per U) and it includes 100Mbps unmetered on a 1Gbps port (multi-homed) and 5Amps of power. A 1U Intel Atom uses less than 0.5Amps of power so you have more power than you have space.
> 
> GoRACK offers 10U for $99/month and you can upgrade to 100Mbps unmetered for $25 so that's only $124/month for 10U of space + bandwidth and 3Amps.
> 
> According to Comcast, you're looking at $199.95/month just for 100Mbps down, 20Mbps up so you're already wasting money and losing redundancy if you continue this path.


Hmm, I know, but that's no fun and nothing to learn there.


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## GVH-Jon (Sep 4, 2013)

shovenose said:


> Hmm, I know, but that's no fun and nothing to learn there.


So basically you're saying that you would intentionally screw your clients to learn a few tricks? There's other ways to learn you know. I bet you that if you started selling servers or virtual servers from that setup and your clients found out the servers were in your closet, they would probably cancel and lose respect for you.

Bad idea.


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## shovenose (Sep 4, 2013)

GVH-Jon said:


> So basically you're saying that you would intentionally screw your clients to learn a few tricks? There's other ways to learn you know. I bet you that if you started selling servers or virtual servers from that setup and your clients found out the servers were in your closet, they would probably cancel and lose respect for you.
> 
> Bad idea.


You are stupider than I thought. Close thread please.


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## KuJoe (Sep 4, 2013)

Keep in mind that this thread and your actions are a reflection on your company (ShoveHost) even if you try to separate them it will still have an impact so I would tread carefully. Now if you were to give away free services you were hosting in your closet nobody would complain about that but charging for such service is not a good idea no matter how little you charge for it.

Offering free services is your best bet since it's closer to a real world environment for you to test with and your "clients" wouldn't have a leg to stand on if you were honest upfront and you had some unexpected downtime.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Sep 4, 2013)

This pattern is getting rather predictable.


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## shovenose (Sep 4, 2013)

KuJoe said:


> Keep in mind that this thread and your actions are a reflection on your company (ShoveHost) even if you try to separate them it will still have an impact so I would tread carefully. Now if you were to give away free services you were hosting in your closet nobody would complain about that but charging for such service is not a good idea no matter how little you charge for it.
> 
> Offering free services is your best bet since it's closer to a real world environment for you to test with and your "clients" wouldn't have a leg to stand on if you were honest upfront and you had some unexpected downtime.


I understand. Thank you.


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## HalfEatenPie (Sep 4, 2013)

Thread was requested to be closed by the Original Poster (Shovenose).


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