# Would you buy owncloud space?



## NodeBytes (Jun 11, 2013)

Hey all,

I know there are plenty of storage services out there already, however with the restrictions they place and the prices they   charge for space I was thinking about hosting owncloud.

Would you pay for owncloud space?

I could sell accounts for around $2 per 100gb

Thoughts on this? Worries, suggestions?


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## Pmadd (Jun 11, 2013)

I'd buy it if I know my data will be secure.


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## wlanboy (Jun 11, 2013)

I don't buy things I can handle myself. Owncloud is just too simple to install.


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## drmike (Jun 11, 2013)

I think a low cost service like Backupsy (minus the CC network) that had OwnCloud installations would be super.

I've been looking at OwnCloud for a while, but haven't found the time to spend with it to see if good fit for any of my needs.

Of course throwing it behind SSL by default and taking long road to privacy and data non-disclosure is necessary to consider any provider.


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## D. Strout (Jun 11, 2013)

I'd rather manage it myself. Backupsy seems fine (CC network? test IP isn't on their AS) and great for OwnCloud. Why have just OC when you could have a whole VPS underneath it?


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## drmike (Jun 11, 2013)

I actually like dedicated single task/function for some of the services I buy.  A VPS is a playground often and things can/will get hosed.  Enough updates and patches out there that do break things.

Sometimes much nicer to let a provider deal with all the hadrware and software layer while I concentrate on my business and using the service.

$2 per 100GB is a pretty low price  But compare that to Backupsy @ $7 per 500GB....

That's .02 for this service compared to Backupsy at .014 per gigabyte.

2 cents vs. 1.4 cents 

Both are cheap.  6/10th of one cent price difference for being able to use far more robust/powerful/useful software on this compared to Backupsy with the backup use only.

Sure, neck and neck and real cheap 

When can I buy one  ?


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## NodeBytes (Jun 12, 2013)

I was actually thinking of using a backupsy VPS, I would make nearly nothing off of it if anything after domain, ssl... etc. But it's more that it would be secure, cheap, and would just work. 

After the Google NSA incident I am moving over to an encrypted backupsy VPS.

If people want it, I can set this up!


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## drmike (Jun 12, 2013)

Yeah, I'd be interested in forwarding at least one customer over to your service.  Just recommended OwnCloud to them and recommended Backupsy for their backups of their OwnCloud


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## willie (Jun 12, 2013)

I found the backupsy TOS kind of scary, and I wouldn't put anything really sensitive on a VPS whether it was encrypted or not.


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## drmike (Jun 12, 2013)

@willie, where is the Backupsy ToS. Looked at their website and it isn't jumping out at me.

What sort of things were concerning to you?


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## acd (Jun 12, 2013)

It kind of reads like a subscriber rights trainwreck.

http://www.backupsy.com/tos.html

Unlimited permutations without notification, which makes any provision that binds backupsy completely moot.



> [..]Backupsy reserves the right to add, delete or modify any provision of this agreement at any time without notice.[..]


 Unenforceable provisions without checking process lists or inspecting network traffic, both of which invade data privacy. Also, any kind of owncloud webservice would be right-out since it isn't explicitly for storage or backup (obviously you can ticket and ask first):



> [..]Backupsy VPSes are only allowed to run programs intended to store or assist in the backup of Subscriber's data.[..]


 Don't do anything that requires a lot of computation, like disk IO to dmcrypt or ~15-20MB/sec of ssh for more than 2 minutes, or you'll get suspended. Definitely don't run sha256sum or consistency checking programs on your backupsy.



> [..]Subscriber's programs and services may not use 100% of one CPU core for more than 2 minutes.[..]


 Unstated/inadequately defined limitations (what is 50%?)



> [..]Subscriber cannot utilize more than 50% of allocated IOPS (input and output per second) resources for more than 15 minutes.[..]


 FAQ inconsistent with TOS:



> [..]All account plans come with a predetermined amount of traffic allowance. If the allocated traffic limit reached, Backupsy will notice the customer and cap the connection to 1Mbps. The connection cap can be lifted by purchasing additional traffic.[..]


Per FAQ:


> Your server will be suspended automatically to avoid an unexpected overage. You should then contact us to purchase additional bandwidth at $7 per terabyte.


 No refund policy, ever. It's going to be funny when people chargeback for unprovided services, which is legit under most CC providers for non-material purchases.



> [..]Backupsy is unable to grant exceptions.[..]All account credits will be forfeited at the time of cancellation.[..]


 Inspecific wording. I read it like this: "Sometimes backupsy will send you lolcats. You may not opt out of these advertisements."



> From time to time, Backupsy may send Subscriber information and/or notices that may or may not be totally relevant to Subscriber; Subscriber may not opt out of these communications.


 If there's a problem, we might not send you an email to notify you, purely at our discretion. We created a trouble ticket for you on our helpdesk, though. What do you mean you don't check that regularly...



> In the event that Backupsy, during its manual reviews, discover any points that Backupsy requires further clarification on, *Backupsy will contact Subscriber via support ticket *and/*or email*, and at Backupsy's discretion, and may suspend Subscriber's services until the verification issue is resolved with Subscriber.


 In the event of fraud complaints, you're given no notification and have no recourse to defend yourself before termination:



> In the event Subscriber pays with a payment that turns out to be fraudulent, Subscriber's services and account will be terminated immediately and without notice.


... tbc...


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## acd (Jun 12, 2013)

... aaand we're back...

Talking about chargebacks is grounds for termination. Which is an interesting way of avoiding the unprovided service condition since you have to request cancellation without having been terminated for that to apply.



> If Subscriber initiates a dispute or chargeback, or threatens such action, Backupsy may terminate Subscriber's services immediately and without further notice.


 Bakupsy might kill your service if they think there's been a breech of your account or vps security, the details of this process are completely opaque to the end user and do not require user interaction. Triggering this could be as easy as logging in from two IP addresses geolocated differently from each other.



> If it is determined that Subscriber is maintaining weak account security, Backupsy will, at it's discretion, suspend or terminate Subscriber's service, without a refund.


Yeesh!


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## serverian (Jun 12, 2013)

*@acd*, *@willie*, honestly, that TOS is compiled by myself (taken from other VPS providers) and reviewed by a freelance lawyer to cover up our asses only if something goes wrong. *We are not applying any of the strict rules to our customers.*

To clear up some points you have mentioned:


We are asking the customer if he wants to be billed for the extra bandwidth or get capped.
You can run ownCloud. And honestly, we are not peeking anyone's processes. We are just monitoring the CPU and IO usage. If someone is hammering them, we are asking them to stop. That's it.
You are free to run AES.
We offer a 7 day refund guarantee.
If we find outgoing DDoS or spam we suspend immediately.
Also, to remove all restrictions (except Torrent, TOR) you can purchase the $2/month addon. (We only allow a few VPS to do this and we split them between nodes and monitor the usage constantly to avoid performance issues)


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## serverian (Jun 12, 2013)

D. Strout said:


> I'd rather manage it myself. Backupsy seems fine (CC network? test IP isn't on their AS) and great for OwnCloud. Why have just OC when you could have a whole VPS underneath it?


He means our new Buffalo location. The reason we did it to provide free bandwidth to people that have their VPS there.


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## serverian (Jun 12, 2013)

buffalooed said:


> I actually like dedicated single task/function for some of the services I buy.  A VPS is a playground often and things can/will get hosed.  Enough updates and patches out there that do break things.
> 
> Sometimes much nicer to let a provider deal with all the hadrware and software layer while I concentrate on my business and using the service.
> 
> ...


You can use ownCloud on Backupsy as well without the $2 addon.


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## drmike (Jun 12, 2013)

Well, I view the ToS as something very serious like @acd pointed out so well.

@serverian, the explanation about the ToS is a little bit better.  For honesty and clarity I'd revise the ToS to be more compatible with humans and points made.

Legalese catch alls for when there is a problem (I call them gotchas) aren't exactly great ideas.  Far better to have clear terms and deal with the abuse scenarios like all providers do by severing relationship.

Hope to see the homepage FAQ type details include the Backupsy and other approved software with any notation on limits.

I like the concept, the pricing, etc.


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## NodeBytes (Jun 12, 2013)

@serverian - Thanks.

@buffalooed - I just need to figure out how to tie in a billing system with owncloud and I could get something going. I'd just have to watch out for bandwidth consumption.


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## NodeBytes (Jun 12, 2013)

What location would you like to see for this?

Lombard, Illinois

Buffalo, NY

South Bend, In

Kansas City, Mo


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## drmike (Jun 12, 2013)

Lombard is ho-hum.

South Bend is hit or miss.

Kansas City is fairly good.

Buffalo is a joke, a cheap joke.

If I were expanding Backupsy I'd  be placing a west coast node, Kansas City probably and something metro DC.


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## NodeBytes (Jun 12, 2013)

It'll either end up being hosted in Lombard or South Bend at this point. I'm done with Kansas city.


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## Supicioso (Jun 12, 2013)

I've never paid someone to do a simple task I could do myself. Unless you don't know what you're doing, there's no reason you can't do it yourself. ownCloud is way to simple to pay someone else to run it for you. Unless for some reason you're skimped on disk space. Then by all means.

I've never had good experiences with kansas servers or VPSes. Stay away, far far away. Or maybe it's just me.


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## drmike (Jun 12, 2013)

bcarlsonmedia said:


> It'll either end up being hosted in Lombard or South Bend at this point. I'm done with Kansas city.


South Bend would be the better choice


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## NodeBytes (Jun 12, 2013)

JaredT90 said:


> I've never paid someone to do a simple task I could do myself. Unless you don't know what you're doing, there's no reason you can't do it yourself.


The reason I think it could be effective is more the price for storage than the actual owncloud install.


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## Supicioso (Jun 13, 2013)

True enough, that's understandable. It would be more beneficial to pay for 200-300GBs of space, where as you might only get 50 or so with a VPS.


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