# Child labor in the low end segment



## kaniini (Apr 30, 2014)

So, I'm actually curious about this, since something popped out at me in the latest drmike drama thread:

"I get that this industry segment is fond of exploiting child labor."

This seems to be a common complaint/observation about the low end.

We (Centarra) don't do this (nor do we really dabble in the low end), but I am curious as to why the low end is commonly associated with this sort of activity, and why/if hosters actually seek out children to exploit in such a manner.  It's just so foreign to me.  My theory presently is that most of the companies hiring kids are owned by other kids, in which case I'm also curious about the legal ramifications of that kind of a situation.


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## Nett (Apr 30, 2014)

There aren't any contracts.


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## kaniini (Apr 30, 2014)

I understand there isn't any contracts, but that means there's not any enforceable NDAs either.  I just don't see how that is at all responsible for any legitimate business to be doing.


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## blergh (Apr 30, 2014)

No contracts as well as easy to use as "goalkeepers" in case shit hits the fan. Have some kid handle support-tasks and pay them with free VM's.


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## drmike (Apr 30, 2014)

Well thank you @kaniini for picking up the prior thread and running with this one.  Seems like I struck a sore spot, like usual and lots of people felt dirty and should perhaps be seeking a proper shower.  The earlier thread was an evolution along the way and an oh f***k moment when I realized the math at play on age.

The illegal minor work / child labor / child exploitation topic in the web hosting world isn't new.  There are threads at least as early as 2003 on WHT about the matter and at least one was shuttered suddenly and led to another.

In the United States, this is where the aforementioned business entities are based and where the owners of such live, and the employees/contractors/minors live --- a minor CANNOT engage in contracts legally.  So the concept of being a contractor employment wise is widely prohibited.

The only way a CHILD can engage in contract matters is where there is an adult of legal age (18 and above) who is involved, overseeing the operation and who assumes the risk legally for the minor.

All of this ignores the status of emancipated minor, which is rather rare and likely never in play.

There are Federal Laws on child / minor labor and there are additionally State-level laws which further limit matters.



kaniini said:


> "I get that this industry segment is fond of exploiting child labor."
> 
> This seems to be a common complaint/observation about the low end.


The low end complaint is kids, but many of the companies carry on as if they are legal and infer such in all sorts of deceptive ways, some through outright omission, that they are legally operating.

Child labor covers nearly everything. Really hard to legally work around the laws.  It is an age limitation with permission from the school district, often with grades being maintained condition and with permit from such as well as authorization from the parents, and all within the said legal limits on when the child can work, maximum per day, and limits on hours per week.

Why is low end filled with such minors?  For one, it is a lazy get rich quick scam for too many of them - easier to leverage a rented server to make some money than it is to flip burgers.  Second, the barrier to entry is so low (cost, legal, etc.).  Third, many datacenters and resellers blindly sell to minors, to their credit often without knowing such (at least up front). Fourth, using such folks in lieu of employees, provides a "staff" many providers either cannot afford or refuse to pay for.

Conducting a business, as a non minor, utilizing such labor subjects you to state and federal regulations for violations.  More importantly, it blows away legal protections in matters of suits and other claims.  Only defense is somehow to say the child lied and have some paperwork that substantiates that claim.   It's total exposure.


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## drmike (Apr 30, 2014)

This is a side-by-side comparison of Federal Child Labor laws to New York State's laws:

http://www.labor.state.ny.us/workerprotection/laborstandards/workprot/nyvsfed.shtm

This a FAQ style section in New Hampshire on the matter (since we have a known host up there and under the minor status):

http://www.nh.gov/labor/faq/youth-employment.htm

California has a 69-page pamphlet on the child labor topic:

https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/ChildLaborLawPamphlet.pdf


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## WSWD (Apr 30, 2014)

Because nobody cares about the hosting industry.  For the same reason, hosts can continue with the "unlimited" BS, whilst companies in the cell phone industry, for example (remember what happened to Verizon and AT&T?) lose multi-million dollar lawsuits for doing the exact same thing.

Half the hosts you see (okay, probably closer to 75-80%, but who's counting?) in the various forums likely don't even run legal, legitimate business entities.  They aren't companies.  They don't pay taxes.  They do nothing by the rules, where a brick and mortar business would be shut down and the owner fined and/or sent to prison.

I owned restaurants for quite a few years back in the day.  If I had one piece of paper out of order, I would be shut down.  If I didn't play by the rules when it came to hiring minors (the majority of my employees were minors), I'd have my ass handed to me.  I had to keep very extensive records, and those records would be reviewed. 

In the online world, nobody cares.  There are so many Internet "businesses" that have popped up, that the states just can't keep up anymore.  There are still inspectors and entire departments that deal with brick and mortar businesses, but in the online world, it just doesn't exist. 

I would simply recommend reporting these folks to the appropriate Attorney General and hope that something gets accomplished.  Don't be disappointed though when nothing happens.


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## drmike (Apr 30, 2014)

As with all laws, there volumes, and some legal exceptions and a bit of non compliance craftiness.

I know of some partial exemptions on one State level.   However, broadly know that in no area is it permitted that children sit in their school and do work for outside entity (non study direct-related).  This practice seems to be way common in the low end.

The paper permit may also be lacking in areas, but compliances on maximums worked per week remain. 

Simply playing self employed or contractor is a VERY common and VERY old hack of regulations.  Everyone and your grandmother had a swing at that long ago.


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## DomainBop (Apr 30, 2014)

MannDude mentioned this in the other thread which might be worthy of its own topic: " *contract workers vs real employees",* etc.  In the US there is a fuzzy line between contractor and employee, and many companies have learned the hard way (i.e. been hit with fines and demands to pay back payroll taxes) that the IRS considers their contractor an employee.  Generally if someone is working full time for your business (i.e. 30-40 hours weeks) and you try to pass them off as a contractor instead of an employee the IRS will eventually get you.  If you're a dumbass and handing out "Vice President of ..."  titles to "contractors" and the contractors list their shiny new titles on places like LinkdIn it greatly increases the risk that the company will be audited if the IRS is alerted to the situation.

Now back to child labor...



> There are Federal Laws on child / minor labor and there are additionally State-level laws which further limit matters.


A couple of FAQ's for NY state:

comparison of NY state vs Federal laws: http://www.labor.state.ny.us/workerprotection/laborstandards/workprot/nyvsfed.shtm

permitted working hours and times: http://www.labor.state.ny.us/workerprotection/laborstandards/workprot/lschlhrs.shtm

For NY one of the biggest highlights is that 14/15 yr olds are limited to 3 hours of work on school days and 16/17 year olds are limited to 4 hours of work on school days.

NY State also requires working papers for all minors (even 16 and 17 year olds), which are basically parental consent forms, before an employer can hire a minor to do any work (it applies to both hiring minors as  "contractors" and "employees")

http://www.labor.state.ny.us/workerprotection/laborstandards/workprot/wphmpg.shtm

Other states laws vary, but a large percentage of states do have restrictions on the number of hours a minor can work on school days.  Illinois and New Hampshire both have similar requirements and I can tell you there is one Illinois incorporated company with an adult CEO who is probably in violation of the law due to the number of hours per week their minor mouthpiece works. (hint: the CEO  had a court date yesterday for driving with a suspended license)

edited to add: looks like DrMike posted the NY laws while I was typing


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## Hxxx (Apr 30, 2014)

Most of those kids do work from home. Technically nobody cares about this issue in this side of the industry because is not like they are getting exploited cleaning the floor , watching dishes, sexual harassment, blah bla...

Not to mention that some of the employer (hosting providers) some are not even real companies.  Nor a DBA nor LLC, nor INC, nothing.

This is what happen in the LET market->

Kid A(17)  talk to Kid B(14)

A tells B , hey i was playing with Linux is so cool, i learned to do cd, mkdir , dpkg -i and apt-get in the console, is da bomb!, i heard of this thing called apache, and this cPanel stuff, which by the way we will need your dad CC to buy that license. Let's provide internet accounts! 

Kid B respond: yes yes, with that we can buy more Pokemon cards!

4 hours later...

Kid A : The website is up, lets go to this weird place WHT and LET and post , spam sig, and spam private.

...20 ignorant signed up the first day. And that's how the hosting adventure begins in LET.


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## Nett (Apr 30, 2014)




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## drmike (Apr 30, 2014)

hrr1963 said:


> because is not like they are getting exploited cleaning the floor , watching dishes, sexual harassment,


Child labor isn't really about the nature of the work (though some types of work are clearly given special privileges - like domestic house work, babysitting, newspaper delivery, etc.).  Clearly forced slave or indentured servitude is the worst of all the issues, even if involving a non minor - it is morally wrong and illegal.

Child labor prohibitions are in place to:

1. Encourage academic achievement  - completion of high school studies with diploma or equivalent

2. Prevent dropouts from happening

3. Prevent cheap labor force that pushes out non-minors

4. Preserve wage rates (minimum wage)

5. Prevent wage exploitation (I work for VPS instead) and self-enslavement


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## raindog308 (Apr 30, 2014)

I'd guess 100% of the "child laborers" are kids who would not suffer any measurable hardship if they lost their jobs.  They might lose their free Teamspeak VM but...

I'd guess 100% of them would quit if the work become inconvenient.

I'd guess a pretty big percentage of them would do the work for free because they like to feel like cool milk monitors of the 'net.  Not only do they get *real admin power* but they also get a *free *VPS and they get *paid* and they feel like pimp daddies.

So using words like "exploited" and "enslavement" seems a bit much.


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## Lee (Apr 30, 2014)

Having read the original and this.

I don’t think it’s so much that the lowend market is happy to support child labor, although some of course will.  It’s the internet, where modern children spend 12+ hours of their day connected to the damn thing.  With that many are better skilled than a lot of the adults.

My point is that if they willing to do the work and someone is willing to pay them to do it then why not.  It’s not like they are having to go sit in a office all day, they are in the safety net of home and if the parents of said child are concerned about the time spent in front of the screen or what they are doing they have the power to control it and ultimately the employer has no control to over rule that.

Yes there will always be some concerns and it can lead to issues that may involve excessive pressure on a minor but in the main that is the world we live in today, the under 16 year olds on the net today in this kind of industry are more hungry than ever to get work, earn some extra cash and gain experience in an industry they see their future lies.  Personally, I think it’s right with limits to support that hunger.  Albeit there is conflict in that last statement vs the legal requirements etc.

Yes there will be scams, summer host and so on, but don’t make like this is the only part of the internet that suffers from it. 

In a time where the global economy has gone to shit and there are many countries out there where work starts from the time you can walk, with little to no pay and education is out of reach, I really don’t think what is being raised here is a significant worry or issue to be honest.

We need to protect children, not restrict them.  Times are changing.

Don’t just focus on hosting, the amount of online “business” that are staffed and owned by minors is seriously significant.  Get over it.  Harsh, perhaps.


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## yolo (Apr 30, 2014)

I do remember Robert Clarke talking in IRC about how @kaniini paid him to work on building servers over night. This was at like 2-3am his time, which is against child labor laws for somebody under 18 to work that late.


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## trewq (Apr 30, 2014)

yolo said:


> I do remember Robert Clarke talking in IRC about how @kaniini paid him to work on building servers over night. This was at like 2-3am his time, which is against child labor laws for somebody under 18 to work that late.


The US laws seem silly. In Australia if you are 14 years and 9 months you can legally be employed with your parents permission. You can work whenever and as much as your employer is willing to pay you for.


Having limits on hours per week and times they can work just seems stupid as long as they are not being forced.


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## Francisco (Apr 30, 2014)

Hosting businesses love over worked, underpaid/no pay workers, no matter the age. Some people

go after < 18 year olds since it's their first job and they get the promise of big bucks if

they work hard. With the US job market being as screwed as it is, people want easy

money, especially if they don't need to go to school to make it.

Many years ago I worked in a "datacenter" that went out of their way to never pay me

or always giving me excuses for why they couldn't pay me. All the while one of the owners

was taking $3000/m+ and did literally no work. His whole work load was replying to tickets

with "Francisco will look into this for you", and sometimes not even that.

It's an unregulated field. Would you want it regulated? Probably not in the end.

Francisco


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## DomainBop (Apr 30, 2014)

> I really don’t think what is being raised here is a significant worry or issue to be honest.



If you're a business and you violate the child labor laws of the state/country you operate in it is a huge issue and risk because the fines for violating child labor laws would put most low end providers out of business.  The risks of being reported are also high.  A competitor could report you, or more likely you piss off one of your 14/15 yr old workers and they get back at you by reporting you for violating child labor laws, and you are f**ked.  If you're a hosting or tech company and your margins are so low that you can't hire "real" employees as your staffing needs expand and you have to resort to violating labor laws to survive then you need to reassess your business model.



> The US laws seem silly. In Australia if you are 14 years and 9 months you can legally be employed with your parents permission. You can work whenever and as much as your employer is willing to pay you for.
> 
> 
> Having limits on hours per week and times they can work just seems stupid as long as they are not being forced.



Easy for you to say when you're in Australia, you're not surrounded by a bunch of braindead idiots who are becoming dumber with each passing day like I am.  The kids in this (U.S.) country need to devote more time to their schoolwork.  (_my statement is based on the rapidly declining test scores of US students vs other countries -- see historical charts --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment _).


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## datarealm (Apr 30, 2014)

My children do what they are told and they like it! ;-)


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## trewq (Apr 30, 2014)

DomainBop said:


> Easy for you to say when you're in Australia, you're not surrounded by a bunch of braindead idiots who are becoming dumber with each passing day like I am.  The kids in this (U.S.) country need to devote more time to their schoolwork.  (_my statement is based on the rapidly declining test scores of US students vs other countries -- see historical charts --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment _).


... Is the US education system really that bad?


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## tchen (Apr 30, 2014)

This falls into that muddy middle ground where the kids not actually employees, and thus, the hosting company itself is in no position to dictate or control when they work.  In Robert Clark's case above for example, if his contract was with a legal entity under his dad's name, it would be his dad that would be in violation of child labor laws, not kaniini.

Child workers basically fall into:

A ) contract-less minor

B ) direct contract with minor

C ) contract with employing business

options A ) and B ) are effectively the same.  Liability is effectively zilch if you keep your employee-contractor distance.  In cases of c) though you are exposed to federal child trafficking laws if you knew your suppliers were violating child labor laws.


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## drmike (Apr 30, 2014)

raindog308 said:


> I'd guess 100% of the "child laborers" are kids who would not suffer any measurable hardship if they lost their jobs.  They might lose their free Teamspeak VM but...
> 
> I'd guess 100% of them would quit if the work become inconvenient.
> 
> ...


That's pretty much everything wrong with the industry:

1. "Work" but they are a contractor (probably 99% without a legal contract) and not legally able to be a contractor and lacking proper permits and adult/guardian who assumes the legal risk.

2. "Working" for free... There is no such notion here.  In lieu of financials, they are trading goods, services and other often intangibles which in deed have perceived value and are certainly covered by a multitude of state, federal and international laws and case law that say such barter-like schema is not a legal work around to taxation and child labor or even minimum wage at that.

3. Real admin powers - this is the most startling issue.    Near full access to all sorts of things (customer data, finances, personal details) and without any proper risk protection for the CUSTOMER.  Is it any wonder why "hacks" happen and not an exploit can be found?   PERHAPS THAT EXPLOIT WAS THE MINOR SKID YOU "FIRED" in the past? 

Child labor isn't solely about slavery or indentured servitude.  It is about all those other points I was on about earlier.

So from now on, I am beating sketchy providers over the heads at the door, upfront.  If I even get a twitch that minors are running the circus I am doing the dance routine and it doesn't matter if it is here or on any other site.

I am tired of business as usual and folks running all these sites acting like a vetting process takes a PhD to weed the idiots out.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Apr 30, 2014)

That raises interesting legal questions where one of our resident minors is reselling entire /24s on behalf of a company well known for willingly selling to spammers.


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## kaniini (Apr 30, 2014)

yolo said:


> I do remember Robert Clarke talking in IRC about how @kaniini paid him to work on building servers over night. This was at like 2-3am his time, which is against child labor laws for somebody under 18 to work that late.


That was more to keep him from possibly stealing things out of my cages when he found himself stranded in Dallas and had to return to the datacenter.  It certainly isn't the norm for how we operate.  Idle hands are the devil's work and all of that.


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## GVH-Jon (Apr 30, 2014)

raindog308 said:


> I'd guess 100% of the "child laborers" are kids who would not suffer any measurable hardship if they lost their jobs.  They might lose their free Teamspeak VM but...
> 
> I'd guess 100% of them would quit if the work become inconvenient.


False.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Apr 30, 2014)

kaniini said:


> That was more to keep him from possibly stealing things out of my cages when he found himself stranded in Dallas and had to return to the datacenter.  It certainly isn't the norm for how we operate.  Idle hands are the devil's work and all of that.


Far be it for me to tell you how to run your company - but out of curiosity, why even do business with someone you obviously distrust?  Surely it wouldn't be so difficult to have him replaced.


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## raindog308 (Apr 30, 2014)

I said: "'d guess 100% of the "child laborers" are kids who would not suffer any measurable hardship if they lost their jobs."



GVH-Jon said:


> False.


So you are employing children whose standard of living would drop if they were fired? In other words, their families are relying on this income to sustain themselves?

Why shouldn't I be calling the FBI right now?


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## GVH-Jon (Apr 30, 2014)

raindog308 said:


> I said: "'d guess 100% of the "child laborers" are kids who would not suffer any measurable hardship if they lost their jobs."
> 
> 
> So you are employing children whose standard of living would drop if they were fired? In other words, their families are relying on this income to sustain themselves?
> ...


I was more referring to your statement that teenagers would quit when their job becomes inconvenient for them.

If that was the case I would have quit a long time ago.


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## DomainBop (Apr 30, 2014)

GVH-Jon said:


> False.


What isn't false however is that child labor laws in New Hampshire prohibit 16 and 17 year olds from working more than 6 days per week and 30 hours per week during the school year.



> VI. No youth 16 or 17 years of age who is duly enrolled in school shall be permitted to work more than 6 consecutive days or more than 30 hours during the school calendar week, which shall be Sunday through Saturday.
> http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXIII/276-A/276-A-4.htm


$10K fine for each violation (http://www.nh.gov/labor/documents/child-labor-guide.pdf )...I won't even mention the fines for falsely listing employees with titles like "VP" and "Director of... " as contractors.


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## GVH-Jon (Apr 30, 2014)

DomainBop said:


> What isn't false however is that child labor laws in New Hampshire prohibit 16 and 17 year olds from working more than 6 days per week and 30 hours per week during the school year.


When you're in court you don't make assumptions. You give facts. Assumptions get you nowhere. And you have no facts to give regarding the number of hours or days I work in a week.


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## kaniini (Apr 30, 2014)

Aldryic C said:


> Far be it for me to tell you how to run your company - but out of curiosity, why even do business with someone you obviously distrust?  Surely it wouldn't be so difficult to have him replaced.


We wound up removing his access to the floor with the internal cages later on, actually for this reason.  His equipment was moved to the other DC area with the other colocation customers.


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## Wintereise (Apr 30, 2014)

GVH-Jon said:


> I was more referring to your statement that teenagers would quit when their job becomes inconvenient for them.
> 
> If that was the case I would have quit a long time ago.


There are exceptions everywhere, doesn't mean they're frequent enough to re-define the norm.

What @raindog308 said IS the case for 99.999999% 16 year old kids running 'companies.'


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## MannDude (Apr 30, 2014)

The major issue with this, is that child-labor laws were originally put in place because as America became industrialized you had lots of children working in factories, mills, and mines with their families to get by. It was hard, grueling work that posed risks to a developing child and prevented them from obtaining higher education. Ma and Pa need you to work in the mill so the family can afford to eat, so you did.

While I'm sick and tired of these wanna-be teenager CEOs who go around over-exaggerating their importance in the industry and their 'wealth', they're working voluntarily. Often times for non-legitimate, non-tax paying companies. Often times under aliases, but the vast majority of the time under their own will. I don't know of any slave-driver type hosts who force their crew of underpaid teenage workers to respond to tickets or rack servers. Most these kids work for small hosts anyway who'd have a relatively lax work load, I'd imagine, anyhow. No legitimate company would hire a teenager who is unable to legally sign a contract, so that leaves their 'employment' options reduced to unethical providers or working for other kids who they play games with online or whatever.

If you've hired a teenager, then chances are you've done it either because you knew them and trusted them with their (hopefully) limited access or because they're simply cheap hires. Teens don't have a cost of living, they live at home. They don't have bills. They don't have mouths to feed except their own in the lunch line at school, and Ma and Pa probably give them lunch money anyway. They take their modest earnings from you and spend it on their hobbies, on new clothes, on weed, on whatever kids spend money on. I don't know.

But, what do I know? Maybe HostGator has a 14X14 foot room with a locked door that is full of kids answering tech support tickets for 16 hours a day and SoftLayer's servers fancy cabling is only possible by the small, under developed hands of minors. <shrugs>


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## GVH-Jon (Apr 30, 2014)

MannDude said:


> The major issue with this, is that child-labor laws were originally put in place because as America became industrialized you had lots of children working in factories, mills, and mines with their families to get by. It was hard, grueling work that posed risks to a developing child and prevented them from obtaining higher education. Ma and Pa need you to work in the mill so the family can afford to eat, so you did.
> 
> While I'm sick and tired of these wanna-be teenager CEOs who go around over-exaggerating their importance in the industry and their 'wealth', they're working voluntarily. Often times for non-legitimate, non-tax paying companies. Often times under aliases, but the vast majority of the time under their own will. I don't know of any slave-driver type hosts who force their crew of underpaid teenage workers to respond to tickets or rack servers. Most these kids work for small hosts anyway who'd have a relatively lax work load, I'd imagine, anyhow. No legitimate company would hire a teenager who is unable to legally sign a contract, so that leaves their 'employment' options reduced to unethical providers or working for other kids who they play games with online or whatever.
> 
> ...


Wow. I'm a bit offended now. <_<


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## GVH-Jon (Apr 30, 2014)

.


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## Aldryic C'boas (Apr 30, 2014)

GVH-Jon said:


> Wow. I'm a bit offended now. <_<


And now you know how we feel every time you call yourself a provider.


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## Nett (Apr 30, 2014)

GVH-Jon said:


> 2. No legitimate company would hire a teenager who is unable to legally sign a contract,



So GVH is not legitimate


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## GVH-Jon (Apr 30, 2014)

Aldryic C said:


> And now you know how we feel every time you call yourself a provider.


Last I checked I'm in the Verified Provider group here.

Anyways, where's Fabozzi when you need him?


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## Coastercraze (May 1, 2014)

Where I live, the law is that you must have a workers permit if under the age of 18 yrs old and that you cannot work past 10 PM. (I think that was the curfew rule set)

General rule of thumb is if you're of legal age to sign a contract, you can work. If not, don't bother as I'm sure your parents aren't going to sign off on being responsible for whatever you end up doing.


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## kaniini (May 1, 2014)

GVH-Jon said:


> Last I checked I'm in the Verified Provider group here.
> 
> Anyways, where's Fabozzi when you need him?


I don't know, but I am curious as to when you plan to respond to my inquiry on WHT.  Here it is in case you missed it: http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?p=9100747#post9100747

Are you chicken?


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## Aldryic C'boas (May 1, 2014)

You need better role models, kid.


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## DomainBop (May 1, 2014)

> . *@MannDude said* No legitimate company would hire a teenager who is unable to legally sign a contract, so that leaves their 'employment' options reduced to unethical providers or working for other kids who they play games with online or whatever.


(credit for giving me this SingleHop link goes to DrMike)

http://www.thewhir.com/web-hosting-news/singlehop-commits-to-un-global-compact-on-ethical-business-practices



> Towards the abolition of child labor, SingleHop offers pro-bono hosting and website consulting to the Notforsale campaign (www.notforsalecampaign.org), a worldwide organization focused on eliminating slavery and child labor.


RackSpace requires that all of its suppliers agree to a "human rights code of conduct" and agree not to hire children "under the age of 16 or the minimum compulsory age for completion of education, whichever is greater".

https://responsibility.rackspace.com/sites/default/files/Supplier_Code_of_Conduct.pdf


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## MannDude (May 1, 2014)

GVH-Jon said:


> 1. wanna-be teenager CEOs who go around over-exaggerating their importance in the industry and their 'wealth *- What is this?*
> 
> 2. No legitimate company would hire a teenager who is unable to legally sign a contract, so that leaves their 'employment' options reduced to unethical providers or working for other kids who they play games with online or whatever. *- Age does not matter as much as skill and maturity does.*
> 
> 3. Teens don't have a cost of living, they live at home. They don't have bills. They don't have mouths to feed except their own in the lunch line at school, and Ma and Pa probably give them lunch money anyway. They take their modest earnings from you and spend it on their hobbies, on new clothes, on weed, on whatever kids spend money on. I don't know. *- Responsible parents should and do teach their kids responsibility with money. I receive a pretty decent pay compared to what normal teenagers would get paid working at a supermarket, and I put it into a savings account because I'm one of the MANY teenagers that CAN be responsible.*


It wasn't aimed _directly_ at you, it applies to many.

Step 1: Buy a domain name.

Step 2: Buy a cheap oversold VPS or reseller account.

Step 3: Install WHMCS

Step 4: Tell friends at school you started your own company and are a CEO.

Step 5: How do I work this thing?

That's the process for many, not all. I don't know you personally so it's not directed at you particularly.

1.) Okay, that may have been partially directed towards you. You're on WHT claiming to be pulling in mid 6 figures a year, going on 7 figures by the end of this year. That's bullshit. Come on man. You couldn't even afford to take care of your first batch of shared/reseller hosting customers and sold them. Reading threads over there now, it seems to be the same case again.

2.) Age does matter, as a minor can't enter a contract legally, correct? (I may be wrong actually, but I do not believe I am) Not that anyone seems to actually enforce NDAs, non-competes or any other contracts in this industry anyway.

3.) I remember when I turned 16 years old. My father asked me, "Do you want a car?" I told him "Yeah!" You know what he said? "Get a job, then." And I did. I worked at Subway as a teenager, later at a steak house and put flyers in mailboxes in my neighborhood advertising that I would mow yards for $15. That's work. Sweating your ass off in a steak house for $5.50/HR after school was work. Taking a break from playing Minecraft to consult with your VP of Operations / Counter Strike teammate to assign some new IPs to a VM isn't work and doesn't help develop a strong work ethic.

Saving what you earn while your cost of living is zero is wise, and it's actually something I wish I had done more of when I was younger but I enjoyed having fun when not going to school or working so my money went towards that. But I'm happy to report today that I learned the value of a dollar the old fashion way, by working hard for it.

EDIT: It should be noted that I am not saying I don't think people under the age of 18 shouldn't work in the industry. Obviously there is some talent out there and some very capable kids. All I'm trying to say that for every talented one, there is 10 who don't know what the fuck they're doing and don't need to be near personal data. Working in the industry while still a student has it's own complications.

If you're young, enjoy being young. Go smash some bottles in a parking lot. Go get drunk at your friend's property in the country around a fire. Go chase after some girls and do teenager stuff. Go socialize, in person, face to face with others. (Kidding about the illegal stuff... just go be a teenager)


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## GVH-Jon (May 1, 2014)

I hardly get to enjoy my age. I *voluntarily chose* to focus *everything* that I do to *improve upon my future.* I don't smoke, I don't drink, I don't do drugs, I don't smash bottles in parking lots ... I don't go speeding at 100mph on the highway, none of that. I do socialize with people ... I'm not a loner, but honestly I'm going to tell you right now that I work my ass off day in and day out in everything that I do.

I'm sorry I just take things too personal and emotional when it comes to people underestimating or judging others by their age and nothing else without actually knowing them.



> 1.) Okay, that may have been partially directed towards you. You're on WHT claiming to be pulling in mid 6 figures a year, going on 7 figures by the end of this year. That's bullshit. Come on man. You couldn't even afford to take care of your first batch of shared/reseller hosting customers and sold them. Reading threads over there now, it seems to be the same case again.


I claimed to be pulling _near_ mid 6-figures, not mid 6 figures. I said 7 figures by the end of *2016*. It's not a matter of whether or not you CAN do something, it's a matter of whether or not what is best for the sake of business allows it.


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## drmike (May 1, 2014)

GVH-Jon said:


> When you're in court you don't make assumptions. You give facts. Assumptions get you nowhere. And you have no facts to give regarding the number of hours or days I work in a week.


I think it's easy to make a case against you exceeding hourly limits per week, not being compensated by law at minimum wage, working during school hours, etc.  You really should keep a lower profile and stay out of the path of heavy traffic.

Last time I snooped the corporate documents in Illinois, the company is Lance's, being the non minor, he's responsible for all this.   Your parents are responsible/liable also.  Not good / cool.

I probably can find multiple things, and in public that would make your school district head administrator punch his/her door. 

If I didn't call you out like this, the IRC symphony would complain and whine about some conspiracy. 

Fact is, while GVH is still floating, it isn't witout lots of rule breaking and disregard for regulations/laws/etc.


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## drmike (May 1, 2014)

GVH-Jon said:


> I hardly get to enjoy my age. I *voluntarily chose* to focus *everything* that I do to *improve upon my future.* I don't smoke, I don't drink, I don't do drugs, I don't smash bottles in parking lots ... I don't go speeding at 100mph on the highway, none of that. I do socialize with people ... I'm not a loner, but honestly I'm going to tell you right now that I work my ass off day in and day out in everything that I do.
> 
> I'm sorry I just take things too personal and emotional when it comes to people underestimating or judging others by their age and nothing else without actually knowing them.
> 
> I claimed to be pulling _near_ mid 6-figures, not mid 6 figures. I said 7 figures by the end of *2016*. It's not a matter of whether or not you CAN do something, it's a matter of whether or not what is best for the sake of business allows it.


What do you want, an award for being "straight edge"?  Vast majority of people never engage in said behaviors...

100MPH on the highway?  All I can say, is WTF is Lance in Court for like the 12th time for Traffic violations?  Speed much? No, I didn't peek, because Lance is like Casper the incorporation ghost. 

*01:26AM* <--- you see that?   What time is school in the morning?  Where do you find time to sleep?  You run ads here, so clearly, have a commercial interest/job/work here... Prima facia evidence of the labor law breaking.  Think man, think.

*I work my ass off day in and day out in everything that I do.* - clearly a child labor problem.   Will we find slumping academics? Discipline problems in the school?   Parents that tell your ass to get to bed at 10PM?  It's clear, the NH regulations don't allow for such whether you like it or not.  Pushing the matter in public is only going to get you slapped, and then I'll say, "I TOLD YOU SO".


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## drmike (May 1, 2014)

DomainBop said:


> (credit for giving me this SingleHop link goes to DrMike)
> 
> http://www.thewhir.com/web-hosting-news/singlehop-commits-to-un-global-compact-on-ethical-business-practices
> 
> ...



The minimum age at play is 18.  It's like that in most civilized countries, including the UK and Australia which have come up on the threads.  Even if you are a high school drop out, the regulations still apply.  Ditto for those in trade schools, colleges, etc.

I might not think this system covers every situation, butsurely one can file for exemptions or simply become an emancipated minor.

It's not cute seeing the aforementioned in his youtful idealism at 1:30 IN THE MORNING defending self exploitation of himself.

I'll ask it, where are the parents?  Not just his, but many of these kids?  Saying these kids are safe in their room playing business is a total lie.  

Let's think of bigger picture issues at play here...

DMCA letters, who is the legal agent?

Subpoenas, does a minor respond?

Child pornography on the server - do we have a child in possession of child pornography as a result?

Frankly, it's not even adequate to have mom sign the incorporation like one young lad has done.   If the signature to the incorporation isn't actively involved and overseeing the youth, the youth is running amuck and exposed to all sorts of stuff and would be indefensible in a Court of Law outside of outright perjuring oneself with fictionalized involvement.


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## Coastercraze (May 1, 2014)

6 figures doesn't mean you don't spend 6 figures or more just to get that.

I'll be more impressed if you knew what BIPGAEI meant.


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## Nett (May 1, 2014)

MannDude said:


> It wasn't aimed _directly_ at you, it applies to many.
> 
> Step 1: Buy a domain name.
> 
> ...


Nah, this ain't that hard.

Seen this before? 

@GVH-Jon I'm waiting for your reply on comment.


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## drmike (May 1, 2014)

GVH-Jon said:


> Last I checked I'm in the Verified Provider group here.
> 
> Anyways, where's Fabozzi when you need him?


This thread is one that keeps giving the more I read  Bahahah

Fabozzi has a sock in his mouth. 

You have a man-boy crush on Chris, admit it.

You think CC wants more bad coverage when they are trying to buy their spot on INC 5000 self inclusion paid list?   Do you think with IPV4 run down that they haven't timed the relocation to Downtown Buffa-ho to maximize posturing?  I mean they just updated their existing location and had grand opening there this year.  Offices there are big enough to handle 5 more people.

*I'm in the Verified Provider group here.* - We really need to think long and hard about the youth issue and allowing people into said group.  It is a defacto endoresement of trust to end viewers and presumed something worthwhile happened to sort these providers from the unverified pile.  Let us make this credential really mean something.


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## kaniini (May 1, 2014)

GVH-Jon said:


> I claimed to be pulling _near_ mid 6-figures, not mid 6 figures. I said 7 figures by the end of *2016*. It's not a matter of whether or not you CAN do something, it's a matter of whether or not what is best for the sake of business allows it.


Cool story, bro.  When can I look forward to your staff flogging?


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## drmike (May 1, 2014)

kaniini said:


> Cool story, bro.  When can I look forward to your staff flogging?


Evil kaniini, flogging of minors, the poor child labor workers. Sounds like some artifact of slavery.

Squeeky wheel getting greased on this thread.


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## MartinD (May 1, 2014)

Topic - "Child labor in the low end segment"

Current stuff - more GVH shite.

Topic: Get back on it.

kthxbai.


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## MartinD (May 1, 2014)

In other news..

This depends entirely on the country in which you live/operate. As someone else mentioned (I forget who) the cost of living and the laws regarding child laboUr are vastly different. In a modern, civilised society it is deemed unacceptable to have a child (again, interpretation) working and earning money. In not so modern and not so civilised (inter..you get the drift) it doesn't matter quite so much to those concerned.

I sometimes have children helping out.. and by that I mean either my own or friends kids who are showing an interest and want to. They get a bit of pocket money for doing it and everyone's happy. They are by no means being forced to do anything or indeed doing anything that's mission critical.

I would agree, however, that teenyboppers running around calling themselves CEO, COO, CTO, GTFO, WTFLOL etc are idiots. They lack the understanding to know what an 'officer' in that regard is never mind being one.


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## kaniini (May 1, 2014)

MartinD said:


> I would agree, however, that teenyboppers running around calling themselves CEO, COO, CTO, GTFO, WTFLOL etc are idiots. They lack the understanding to know what an 'officer' in that regard is never mind being one.


Well that's another thing that is foreign to me with these kids.  When I was 16 I didn't even really want to do work, I wanted to fuck around instead.


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## Francisco (May 1, 2014)

kaniini said:


> Well that's another thing that is foreign to me with these kids.  When I was 16 I didn't even really want to do work, I wanted to fuck around instead.


Healz plx

I report u

Francisco


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## Dylan (May 1, 2014)

Francisco said:


> I report u


*Huahuehuahue*


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## drmike (May 1, 2014)

MartinD said:


> I sometimes have children helping out.. and by that I mean either my own or friends kids who are showing an interest and want to. They get a bit of pocket money for doing it and everyone's happy. They are by no means being forced to do anything or indeed doing anything that's mission critical.


All the regulations encourage mentoring and apprenticeships with proper paper work in place and permission where such minors are working regularly.  Your own children are somewhat exempt within limits. If the neighborhood geek spends an hour now and then randomly aside you learning, that's alright and outside of the regulations.   Start setting hours/shifts/whatver for the lad, gets into that problem area.

All work environments I've been in disallow minors except in very limited time/reasoning.  We never accept them for summer internships either.  The 18 years of age bottom line isn't really one that inflicts hardship to nearly anyone.  If we found a parentless youth in a poverty situation and who was trying to get on with life, we might go ahead with such internship/trial situation but highly conditional upon other education participation and with some form of contract in place.  Doing such would be a PITA and we'd likely refer such to our legal advisors for help in that and other matters.

I never have found mixing youngsters with the adults in work environments as being a good one.  Lots of quirky, sometimes just awkward adults that send weird signals to everyone, let alone a minor. Especially when you are speaking of technology...


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## Magiobiwan (May 1, 2014)

unzip, strip, touch, finger, grep, mount, fsck, more, yes, fsck, fsck, fsck, umount, sleep


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## BrianHarrison (May 2, 2014)

Exploiting child labor is appalling and unnecessary. If ones business model hinges upon the use of cheap child labor, then (aside from being morally wrong) that is a business model that will fail.


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## rupe (May 2, 2014)

MannDude said:


> Teens don't have a cost of living, they live at home. They don't have bills. They don't have mouths to feed except their own in the lunch line at school.


I would say you are assuming quite a lot there  I had a part-time job at 14, full-time by 16 living on my own, and knew quite few other 16-18 year olds in the same situation. There are a lot of self-supporting teens from broken families and other not-so-great situations, out there, also quite a few teen parents who actually try to feed and house their little ones. Just wanted to point that out.


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## MannDude (May 3, 2014)

rupe said:


> I would say you are assuming quite a lot there  I had a part-time job at 14, full-time by 16 living on my own, and knew quite few other 16-18 year olds in the same situation. There are a lot of self-supporting teens from broken families and other not-so-great situations, out there, also quite a few teen parents who actually try to feed and house their little ones. Just wanted to point that out.


Well, that's quite rare. In the USA you can not live on your own until you're 18, or have been emancipated by a court. I suppose there are indeed minors who certainly have to help around the house and assist in paying their own way, but generally speaking what I said was true. Some of these hosts can operate because they're owned by, and staffed by teens. Getting very little return on their operation is sustainable when you have a reduced/no cost of living. Throw in a car, house or student loan debt payments. Throw in rent, groceries and utility bills as well, any other misc costs (health insurance, furnishing your house/apartment, hobbies and money for pleasantries like going out to eat or taking a trip to the city or seeing a movie, etc)... and suddenly selling 4GB VPSes for $7/mo seems ridiculous... haha.


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## Aldryic C'boas (May 3, 2014)

Agreeing with Curtis on this one.  In fact.. it seems a bit of a trend that most of the minor/kid hosts (and even some "datacenters") you see tend to come from rich families and be quite spoiled anyways, with daddy's wallet ready to handle their investments and bail them out of any trouble.  Robert Clarke quickly comes to mind as a proper example - and I'm sure a couple of us are mentally naming a more recently-relevant 'company' that fits the bill as well.


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