# Audiophiles around here? Who is using a DAC?



## drmike (Sep 12, 2014)

I've been cobbling an audio project for a while.  

Some hardcore audio nuts out there with expensive audio suites and racks of sound adjustment gear. I am not one,  yet.

Been banging my head for a while over the audio rendering from onboard audio cards in most stuff (i.e. portables, droids, icrapples, ARM devices, etc.).... The fidelity of such, tends to be horrendous and dimensionally blah. 

Not like I run fancy stuff, but it's painful to listen to moreso with each passing year. Plus all the compression hell.

This lead me to discovering DACs which are for my use, mainly, USB tethered audio cards with upscaling.  They range from Chinese < $20 blah versions to $10k DACs.   Bunches of them in the hundreds of dollars area.

My question for you lads, folks around here using DACs... What DACs have been good and which blah for you?  I am interested in test driving some.


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## dcdan (Sep 12, 2014)

Behringer generally makes crap, except for one thing: their UCA202 interfaces are great and cheap. I have 4 of these in active use.


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## drmike (Sep 12, 2014)

dcdan said:


> Behringer generally makes crap, except for one thing: their UCA202 interfaces are great and cheap. I have 4 of these in active use.


People seem to love / hate Behringer.  Long lived and somewhat confusing product line / numbering schema.

I have a Behringer rack compressor / limiter / de-esser for shaping the final stage of the audio. The DAC [whichever I end up with] will go into the MDX unit I have.  It's just post processing cleanup [keep audio at level, knock off SSSSSing, clean up pops] compress it to fit in the proper range.

The UCA202 confuses me.   I saw Windows promotion points and no mention of a DAC.   Strikes me as digital patch in solution.   No DAC in that right?


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## dcdan (Sep 12, 2014)

My main complaint about Behringer is their generally very poor snr. Their equipment looks good, has all the best and whistles, but the actual audio quality reminds me of those integrated sound cards back in the early 2000's.

UCA202 is actually a DAC+ADC (although I have doubts about its ADC quality). I have just realized you are probably referring to a different type of DAC


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## drmike (Sep 12, 2014)

dcdan said:


> UCA202 is actually a DAC+ADC (although I have doubts about its ADC quality). I have just realized you are probably referring to a different type of DAC


I totally haven't seen the UCA202 mentioned as a DAC.  Interesting. 

We are talking about the same thing I do believe.

Does the UCA202 plug in and get detected as an audio playback able device (i.e. a soundcard)?

The straight DACs plug in via USB and really are similar process as a cheap USB soundcard.   Able to playback, record from (if support on DAC for such), etc.

The UCA202 isn't a back pipe in method if I was doing live content recording and needed to get such into computer for editing and all.   --- Wondering how much Linux support there is for it - if at all.


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## dcdan (Sep 12, 2014)

Yes it does detect as a soundcard (plugs in via USB) and Windows has stock drivers for it. Never tried on Linux, but I know someone who used it on Linux with no issues.


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## yolo (Sep 12, 2014)

Lexicon makes GREAT USB sound cards, I currently use 5 of these ( http://www.amazon.com/Lexicon-Lambda-Desktop-Recording-Studio/dp/B000FFWZKI/ ) and have not had any issues. They sound amazing and really are great


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## dcdan (Sep 12, 2014)

yolo said:


> Lexicon makes GREAT USB sound cards, I currently use 5 of these ( http://www.amazon.com/Lexicon-Lambda-Desktop-Recording-Studio/dp/B000FFWZKI/ ) and have not had any issues. They sound amazing and really are great


What OS are you running these on? I remember having some very weird [possibly driver related] issues on Windows XP with these (that's how I ended up with UCA202).


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## drmike (Sep 12, 2014)

@dcdan that UCA202 and the low latency UCA222 look alright for import side of things - if I don't go with a similar feature set in a USB mixer.

Hard to find much issue with their $32~ price point....  This peaked my interest


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## JahAGR (Sep 12, 2014)

Careful with the USB mixers, especially the cheap ones like Behringer. Sound quality is no better than the average on-motherboard sound chip and the flexibility is minimal. That being said, I have one and it's handy when I need to do some quick recording and don't feel like setting up anything more proper

From what I've heard the UCA202/222 are pretty highly rated, especially at the price point. The only thing they really lack is balanced I/O which is probably not very important in a home setting


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## drmike (Sep 12, 2014)

For those inclined to care about DACs and the UCA202/222 this write up and it's good and covers some of the sentiments in detail.  Stumbled upon this looking for more spec and use info about the UCA202's:

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/behringer-uca202-review.html


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## dave (Sep 13, 2014)

I have a Topping TP30 USB amplifier for my system that uses a Burr Brown PCM2704 DAC.


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## drmike (Sep 13, 2014)

dave said:


> I have a Topping TP30 USB amplifier for my system that uses a Burr Brown PCM2704 DAC.


Tell me more.  I am unfamiliar with the Topping brand, but recognize the PCM2704.

How is the TP30 and what are you using it for? Does it couple to headphones, RCA jacks, other stuff without too much Ohm madness (seems to be issues with matching stuff and uncommon ranges on some of these DAC products aimed at high end studio headphones and such).


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## dave (Sep 13, 2014)

The Topping brand is Chinese, but I understand they use good quality components.  The amp is usually around $100.

It's popular because it uses a Tripath chip for the amp (class T), which is supposed to have smooth tube-like qualities, and also uses little power.

I'm using it as an amp for my computer.  It connects to my computer with a USB cable, and then I connect some speakers to the amp.  So I don't have to use the usual powered computer speakers.  It's also got a 3.5mm headphone jack on the front.

There is also an AUX input (RCA), though so far I don't really use it.  I haven't had any problems matching it to the speakers.  I'm using wall-mounted Polk Audio OWM3 speakers, mounted to the sides of a 32" monitor.

I'm happy with it, but my only complaint is the volume pot has gotten a little noisy/scratchy over time as they sometimes do.  Moving it back and forth a bit will clear it up for awhile.


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## blergh (Sep 13, 2014)

A dac is a dac is a dac, more or less. Lots of humbug about different chips "sounding" different and people with golden hearing being able to tell them apart. Common sense is not usually applied, or  science (unless it slightly points to their advantage).

What is your intended usage?


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## pcan (Sep 13, 2014)

My favorite cheap chinese USB DAC is the Fiio E10, and I will soon buy the newly released E10K. It is not the best DAC on the market, but:
- the price/quality ratio is optimal,
- it is small and portable, easy to connect to any computer,
- Amazon will deliver it in a few days (unlike some cheaper China exports with similar specifications).

The DAC chip is 24bit/96 KHz, and the headphone output is good enough to drive almost any Hi-Fi headset.

I used to have a high-end stereo system, but on my current home I haven't the required dedicated room anymore, so I sold it; now I mainly use the headphones or a pair of bookshelf speakers (plus subwoofer) connected to a small tube amp I built a few years ago.


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## drmike (Sep 13, 2014)

blergh said:


> A dac is a dac is a dac, more or less. Lots of humbug about different chips "sounding" different and people with golden hearing being able to tell them apart. Common sense is not usually applied, or  science (unless it slightly points to their advantage).
> 
> What is your intended usage?


 Good ole @blergh .

There is lots of "martketing" with lots of overpriced DACs.  Chin-import stuff likewise is potluck.  But yeah, I agree with your sentiments mostly.

Goal is to get clean audio rendered for ears and shaped accordingly (that's post processing after the DAC).   Those ears are my own for now. 

It's just part of a simple Linux audio hacked suite. Audacity, JACK and mplayer mostly.  Nothing really complicated or musician level.

Working on voice recordings for now.   Cleaning up pre-recorded stuff.  Yanking source materials off of various media and getting them digitized, archived on DVDs and a general breakdown that still renders/plays well even with compression [saving original recording uncompressed].


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## blergh (Sep 13, 2014)

drmike said:


> Good ole @blergh .
> 
> There is lots of "martketing" with lots of overpriced DACs.  Chin-import stuff likewise is potluck.  But yeah, I agree with your sentiments mostly.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you could use more or less anything ranging from cheapo fiio/firestone and up.


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## drmike (Sep 13, 2014)

@blergh  The FIIO's look interesting.  Heck of a price (low).

@pcan ...

"I mainly use the headphones or a pair of bookshelf speakers (plus subwoofer) connected to a small tube amp I built a few years ago."

So, for someone getting started in this area - without the tube amp and without a proper speaker setup, what might you recommend [new or used].   Headphones are nice, but I can't deal with them much - prefer to work with a speaker setup [bookshelf speakers sound my speed].

All the input is appreciated!


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## pcan (Sep 13, 2014)

Bower & Wilkins 685 (2 way loudspeakers) powered by the T-Amp are a small and cheap speaker system I put togheter a while ago for a second home and still enjoy. The B&W 685 have been recently rewamped and rebranded 685 S2. At $700/pair at Best Buy (about the same price level in Europe) they produce a clean and neutral sound, very nice and with decent low frequency emission despite the small size. I would avoid going cheaper than that.

The T-Amp (or most tripath clones) is a "toy amplifier" but still impressive. It does not have enough power to drive the 685 at full level, so you should avoid to turn the volume too high because the clipping distortion could damage the tweeters. I tried the 685 with a more powerful but still cheap NAD 741 integrated amplifier for a while, and the sound was better. A good higher-level matching for the B&W is the Rotel product range. I briefly heard the RA-12 and it sounded good; it also has a built-in WM8740 24 bit/192kHz DAC. The price is completely different, of course.

I am now experimenting with the Hi-FiBerry AMP (I am a beta tester) connected to the B&W 685. This is a cheap full digital audio system; the Raspberry Pi is streaming audio trough the LAN, sending the data digitally trough i2s bus to a special DAC with internal class-T digital amplifier. Results are good, altough power is still limited (about 20+20w in the best possible conditions).


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## alexh (Sep 16, 2014)

I've been away from Head-Fi for a long time, since they changed the theme actually. From what I remember, Little Dot, Schiit, Fiio (as mentioned), and Nuforce were very well-regarded. If you want to build something insane, I remember many people building the Gamma 2 which likely remains one of the highest-end DACs on the market. The Nuforce uDAC is a great choice though, it's relatively inexpensive, sounds great, and supports 96kHz/24bit over USB. They also make a small amp called the Icon which isn't as inexpensive, but would fit your needs. Reviews:

http://www.head-fi.org/products/nuforce-icon-hdp-high-end-headphone-amp-usb-dac-preamp

http://www.head-fi.org/products/nuforce-icon-udac-3-high-resolution-usb-digital-audio-converter-dac-silver

Another good choice for a small T-class amp: http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/trends_ta10_e.html


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## drmike (Sep 20, 2014)

I received the DAC I ordered today from a small single operator in Canada, ehh.

The DAC Destroyer is the name of the product.  I liked that the guy self manufacturers/assembles by hand and has been doing so since at least 2008.

Plugged it into Linux, changed one config file for ALSA.  Had to self-find and perfect this on my lonesome.

Been playing audio - random recordings for hours.  Using my Altec Lansing nothing special computer speakers [yeah reference speakers on a shopping list]/

What a world of difference.  Incredibly rich sound.  Totally f'n awesome.

+10 for DACs in general.


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## Shados (Sep 22, 2014)

I can speak to Schiit being pretty awesome; I bought the Gungnir & Mjollnir combo last year after having the chance to try them out locally, very happy with them so far :3.


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## trewq (Oct 2, 2014)

After this thread planting the idea in my head of getting speakers for my desk (I only have generic headphones currently) I have ordered the following.

https://voll.com.au/shop/b44/

https://voll.com.au/shop/topping-tp23/

These speakers are the same as http://www.amazon.com/Micca-MB42X-Bookshelf-Speakers-Tweeter/dp/B00E7H8GG2 except for "small differences". Voll can't claim them to be the same even though they are from the same factory due to copyright.

Thanks @drmike... Now I'm going to be spending money trying out different DACs and speakers.


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## drmike (Oct 2, 2014)

@trewq Nice kit.

You caught the limitations on that amp right  ?

"Please Note: The TP23 and B44 combination is only suitable for nearfield listening or listening in a small room and low sound levels. To avoid distortion at higher sound levels a more powerful amplifier is recommended for our B44 speakers such as our Topping TP22 or these alternatives"

So won't be a boom system but fine for normal listening.

Topping is on my short list actually, so share your experience when it comes in and you have some time testing it.

I am still looking for some bookshelf speakers and an amp (minus the DAC functionality though).

Enjoying my DAC.  Listening with it now in headphones


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## trewq (Oct 2, 2014)

drmike said:


> You caught the limitations on that amp right  ?


Yeah, I got that. This is just my starting point 



drmike said:


> Topping is on my short list actually, so share your experience when it comes in and you have some time testing it.


Will do. I'm pretty excited, road shipping was free so I'll be waiting another week for them to show up.


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## drmike (Oct 2, 2014)

trewq said:


> Yeah, I got that. This is just my starting point
> 
> Will do. I'm pretty excited, road shipping was free so I'll be waiting another week for them to show up.


I only mentioned that gotcha because there are so many oh I overlooked that thing with this stuff.


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## pcan (Oct 2, 2014)

With 60 Hz cutoff there is no need for a powerful amplifier, because most of the sound energy is on the (missing) low frequency range. I once had a 15+15w amp on a similar small bookshelf setup, but with a much higher 89dB sensitivity, and the power level was not the worst limitation.
The TA2021B power IC has a "audiophile" maximum power of 13+13W over 4 ohm, see here:




The b44+tp23 combination seems to be a good start. It is better to have less watts and a good sound at moderate listening volume, than lots of watts with bad sound at any volume.


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## trewq (Oct 2, 2014)

pcan said:


> The b44+tp23 combination seems to be a good start. It is better to have less watts and a good sound at moderate listening volume, than lots of watts with bad sound at any volume.


That's what I was thinking. I wasn't looking to spend heaps on this set up. I think I've got the value for money vs quality of sound at equilibrium.


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## blergh (Oct 3, 2014)

trewq said:


> Thanks @drmike... Now I'm going to be spending money trying out different DACs and speakers.


You won't hear any difference between them, really.


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## pcan (Oct 3, 2014)

The difference between DACs is subtle and is mostly unnoticed on a low-end system, but the difference between speakers can be huge even at entry-point prices. The issue with Hi-Fi is exactly this: technical specifications are important, but they still don't cover the full picture. On my experience, this is absolutely true for the speaker's choice. Speakers are influenced by the room acoustic properties. Unless you have a purposely built room (tricky and expensive to make), even little emission differences can result in huge sound variations from one speaker model to the other with supposedly identical electrical specification. The same speaker can also perform differently at home from the sound you heard on the shop. It is difficult to choose a Hi-Fi upgrade by purely sitting at the computer while browsing technical documentations or product reviews.

Back to the original question: most class T power amplifiers, expecially all Tripath 2021B based ones, have a strong preference towards 4 ohm speakers (see the graph above), usually installed on smaller bookshelf systems. Most full range Hi-Fi speakers have 8 ohm impedence instead. This means: at next upgrade, probably @trewq will need to replace both speakers and amplifier at once. It can replace the amplifier first, but I would avoid replacing the speakers with a upper level product while keeping a TA2021B-based amplifier.


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## drmike (Oct 3, 2014)

pcan said:


> The difference between DACs is subtle and is mostly unnoticed on a low-end system, but the difference between speakers can be huge even at entry-point prices.



The DAC has been a big improvement over my built in sound cards.  That's using the same desktop speakers I always have.

It's not really improved with the headphones I have though and their limited range.

DACs certainly work unless:

1. You already have a very good sound card.

2. Your audio output speakers or headphones stink on range.

I am interested in DACs for FLAC and similar good recordings that are already much richer than average recorded horror most people listen to.

Also grabbing DACs for ARM devices that are either soundless or typically we bind a cheap USB soundcard to that is blah.  Raspberry Pi's are notorious for blah sound quality and I use them also for projects.

So far, rather happy.   Next is a modest amp and studio reference speakers bookshelf style.  Nothing exotic, just much better kit.


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