# DOJ vs. Apple over Terrorist Phone



## drmike (Feb 19, 2016)

Evolving situation with the deceased killers in San Bernadino, California.  You remember these two gems that shot up their coworkers and killed a bunch of people at a work holiday party.  Loons hiding behind the veil of Islam, may I say wrongly.


Well Apple is getting a dose of the DOJ in legal wranglings where the DOJ is trying to force Apple to unencrypt / unlock phone(s) belonging to the deceased.


Donald Trump got vocal today on Twitter about it, calling for a boycott of Apple.  Hey, I disagree, but boycotting Apple is a good idea based on their manufacturing outsourcing and money laundering alone.


This now breaking:


PHONE BELONGING TO DECEASED HAD PASSWORD CHANGED WITHIN 24 HOURS OF IT BEING IN FEDS CONTROL.


Source: http://www.buzzfeed.com/johnpaczkowski/apple-terrorists-appleid-passcode-changed-in-government-cust


It's an interesting situation pitting sane and locked devices vs. the insecure backdoored government / corporate free roaming that has been rather common on all handsets to date minus a few privacy hardened limited models.


What do you think?


Should Apple be complying with Big Brother?  Is this just an Apple marketing ploy?  Will Apple hacking own device send wrong signal to buyers who go and revolt and jump to competitors?


----------



## MannDude (Feb 19, 2016)

Unpopular opinion I am about to express, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask for assistance in recovering data from the phone of someone (a terrorist) who killed.... what was, it? Fourteen people.


The FBI already has a warrant _and_ permission from the owner of the phone, which happened to be Farook's employer.


In my opinion, due process was followed and a dead terrorist has no rights anyway... And after they let the media trample his apartment which basically ruined that treasure trove of evidence, the phone is likely the last thing they have that contains some real substance.


I mean, I'm all for privacy and 'fighting the man' or whatever. But this isn't just some random dude who got pulled over with an open container of booze or some weed or something and now the cops want to search his phone for no real reason. This was a _terrorist_ who killed over a dozen people. I'd say that there is a line between invasion of privacy and reasonable request to access private data. This would fall into the 'reasonable request' category for me...


Just my $0.02.


EDIT: Unrelated, but what did they ever do with the phones and computers and stuff from the terrorists who shot up Paris? Did privacy rights group fight to defend their privacy as well? Where do we draw the line?


----------



## drmike (Feb 19, 2016)

I feel like these stories of terrorists are just that.  I mean there are dead people and carnage, I am not denying that.  Just that I don't believe these devices are all that hard to hack / get into.  These are normal devices, consumer devices and the terroristas haven't done anything exceptional beyond buying it and using it.


John McAfee piped up and asked for a few weeks with the phone and his crew of hackers would get into it.   I like this guy more and more.


Seriously, whatever is in that phone went over the intertubes and probably in plaintext and in plain sight.  The data is out there and silo'ed already.  


The point to reiterate is this gem:


*PHONE BELONGING TO DECEASED HAD PASSWORD CHANGED WITHIN 24 HOURS OF IT BEING IN FEDS CONTROL.*


*Meaning, it would appear that a federal agent CHANGED the password on the phone.  I cannot overstate this enough.*


----------



## MannDude (Feb 19, 2016)

Yeah, John McAfee said he'd due it for free.


Just give him a hotel room, some bath salts, some cocaine to level him out from all the bath salts and a few hookers and he'll get it done. Or hand it over back to the feds with it wiped, haha. 



drmike said:


> *PHONE BELONGING TO DECEASED HAD PASSWORD CHANGED WITHIN 24 HOURS OF IT BEING IN FEDS CONTROL.*
> 
> 
> *Meaning, it would appear that a federal agent CHANGED the password on the phone.  I cannot overstate this enough.*





Now that's... something. I had not heard/seen that. I mean really, the entire case is fishy. The fact they let the media trample all over a crime scene (his apartment) and destroy evidence is bizarre to me. Doesn't add up and I somehow don't believe it was just a 'mistake' by his landlord that let the media in. You'd think they'd have his apartment being watched by law enforcement and feds while/during the process of collecting evidence. But nope. Probably a 100 different people trampled threw the place, getting their finger prints, hair, and DNA all over everything.


----------



## drmike (Feb 19, 2016)

MannDude said:


> Yeah, John McAfee said he'd due it for free.
> 
> 
> Just give him a hotel room, some bath salts, some cocaine to level him out from all the bath salts and a few hookers and he'll get it done. Or hand it over back to the feds with it wiped, haha.
> ...



McAfee rocks, just don't be his neighbor 


The San Bernadino duo, whole shituation smells off.  Feds password changing something is entirely retarded.  Someone f'd with evidence unless Apple has something that mandated a password change at the handset then, but I doubt it.  Even if so, agent should have been hands off and left it as is and went proper route to preserve evidence.


In this day and age, I expect better from federal agents.  So whole thing, yeah, mighty off.  Ditto for the crime scene of the apartment.


Lawyer representing the deceased has alleged things aren't as they appear to be.   I haven't followed the case much though.


----------



## jarland (Feb 20, 2016)

I found this to be a good read this morning:


http://www.forbes.com/sites/nelsongranados/2016/02/20/apple-can-should-and-will-help-fbi-unlock-shooters-iphone/


----------



## mpkossen (Feb 20, 2016)

MannDude said:


> Just my $0.02.



I actually agree!


And to be brutally honest, I'm a bit disgusted at Apple by unnecessarily turning this into a media circus and marketing campaign.


The way I'm reading it is that the FBI is asking Apple to come up with a solution _to unlock a single device in a *controlled* environment_! They're not asking Apple to build any backdoors or anything the like into their standard software. They're asking Apple to help them unlock a terrorist phone in a closed environment. Heck, if they'd make a separate copy of iOS, put it on the phone, unlocked the phone, and then destroyed the copy of iOS, all would be fine and the FBI would have access to the data they need.


Maybe I'm oversimplifying things here, you tell me. But I feel this whole thing is being blown up a lot more than it should have been by the boys in Cupertino.


----------



## DomainBop (Feb 20, 2016)

MannDude said:


> Yeah, John McAfee said he'd due it for free.
> 
> 
> Just give him a hotel room, some bath salts, some cocaine to level him out from all the bath salts and a few hookers and he'll get it done. Or hand it over back to the feds with it wiped, haha.



I take it you won't be voting for him for President this year?   https://mcafee2016.com/


----------



## Licensecart (Feb 20, 2016)

They should help with the terrorists phone but not a backdoor into their phones by default... fuck the FBI!


----------



## Darwin (Feb 20, 2016)

Maybe I'm overly paranoid, but I don't see FBI/DoJ request as something targeted to help this investigation, there is more...


Let's see, NSA, CIA, FBI, local police, everyone failed to prevent that massacre.


How can USA waste billions of dollars per year and don't prevent that kind of terrorism? (Yes I know that every day and other USA prevents an attack or two and we don't get to know about it because it is classified, but we expect a 100% rate when preventing massacres)


We live in a world that no matter how much you hide yourself you leave lots of footprints everyday. That couple left and USA intelligence failed to link those dots.


I'm happy that Apple is fighting that fight. What they really expect to find in the phone?


If they were lone wolves most of the info is crappy and can be derived/retrieved from other sources.


If they weren't, I doubt they can find any new Intel that USA intelligence agencies current don't have. Intel like that is highly classified and they can and should pretend that it didn't existed before. They love to play that card.


DoJ move is about testing waters see if they can force back dooring and Apple saw it. It isn't about helping this investigation. 


USA has 300+ million people, you lose per year, from terrorist attacks less than what you kill per day using drones(I bet that in a day more Americans die in the hands of fellow Americans). You are winning this war! 


But every time you give away a bit more of your privacy, your freedom, I feel that you are starting to lose it.


----------



## drmike (Feb 20, 2016)

To me the deceased folks and their phones = an opportunity in the past.  All the recording, investment and intelligence failed to catch or identify these folks.  Just like they failed in all the other incidents globally. I can't recall anything major that data gathering has yet prevented.  I am sure there must be something.


The carnage and death happened.  It's over.


These government folks need to be worried about and address the next attack.  These two are dead as doornails.


Weren't these two on Facebook acting strange?  Most seem to be.   Profiling public profiles would be a good start, but creepy on its own and a dragnet that will run over edgy folks who aren't a threat.


----------



## DomainBop (Feb 20, 2016)

drmike said:


> Profiling public profiles would be a good start, but creepy on its own and a dragnet that will run over edgy folks who aren't a threat.



The federal government and many local police departments already use software that calculates the "threat score' of everyone based on their public social media profiles and other factors.  Intrado Beware


----------



## Darwin (Feb 20, 2016)

drmike said:


> Weren't these two on Facebook acting strange?  Most seem to be.   Profiling public profiles would be a good start, but creepy on its own and a dragnet that will run over edgy folks who aren't a threat.



Every intelligence agency in the world profiles Facebook/twitter/g+ (and a lot of other social networks). Even bureaus  not related to national security do (like IRS).  (almost every single social network have some kind of government backdoor). IBM and Palantir are big players in this game.


The world is VERY small and most governments do have a shit ton of data that can/could be used to prevent terrorism. But public opinion wants a 100% success rate. No one wants wants to say the obvious in national TV: Homeland security prevents 99,999% of terrorism, and that number is fucking amazing. 


Do someone really think that current state of emergency in France is about preventing another attack or just a PR stunt? (or like I like to think, François Hollande is throwing "The Bush")


Another thing that I don't understand is: whenever an intelligence agency fails to do its job, someone proposes to give more power to that agency. WTF? How this will solve problems? Where is the study, numbers, audit finds that prove that giving more power and breaking privacy even more will solve these problems? Sorry, you know they exist (wink, wink), but we can't disclose our reports because they are classified.


When I was a teenager I remember looking at the USA and see the land of the free, I wanted to move asap to USA, but shit, what a difference 20 years of brainless politicians can do.


----------



## drmike (Feb 20, 2016)

USA hasn't been free or right directioned since a bit during the 1960's... But even then situation in the States was a wreck.  It was the age of killing Civil Rights Leaders and the President.  USA is mostly a grand marketing / sales illusion.  True, you can come here (hopefully legally), break out of your cast rank and achieve monetary success, something you cannot do elsewhere - but surely can do in increasing number of countries. Money / wealth isn't everything and can be a bastards pursuit.  The US isn't North Korea, but it has lost its soul and direction and is trending down. Sadly.


Lots of us assume that this profiling is new.  It is not.  Cheap computing is just enabling the rapid insanity to multiply and show up everywhere.


When something or someone fails with terrorism and an attack, there should be real beat down and audit that happens.  If government sells this protection through mass surveillance, then failures should indicate the futility of it.  Perhaps it should create a funding choke point, perhaps people should be fired.


I think government needs to try to do less and stick to basics.  All over the United States infrastructure is an embarrassment.  Bridges are on brink of falling, public water systems are toxic sludge, roads would be better with gravel or just dirt in more and more places.   


As things crumble and poverty continues to spread like cancer throughout the United States, more citizens are asking WTF is going on.  Why don't we have our priorities right, why aren't we caring for our own people and land?


I support concealed carry and open carry.  Be it novel or naive, but I consider an armed population a deterrent and competition to deranged idiots out to kill innocent people.  Every time lunatics go off, I pray that someone takes their firearm and uses it in the most noble way possible - in protection of their fellow man (or woman). 


As some wise Japanese leader once said (bad paraphrase), never attack the USA, there is a gun behind every blade of grass.    If this were only true.


Time to get the guns out of the storage lockers and strap up.  Police can bring theirs, but citizens should be first in the crossfire on the scene and able to answer back with deadly force.  I consider having to kill terrorists and maniacs inflicting harm a civic duty and a moral obligation.  I'd be honored to do the necessary and hope that others would find the fortitude to step up in severe times of need.


----------



## qrwteyrutiyoup (Feb 20, 2016)

Interesting read: http://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?p=5645


----------



## drmike (Feb 20, 2016)

qrwteyrutiyoup said:


> Interesting read: http://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?p=5645



Reading it now and yes, awesome!


----------



## drmike (Feb 20, 2016)

and it gets more interesting...


The iPhone was issued to the deceased by the County, under his employment.


This is an alleged FBI PR piece clarifying more about the phone and what happened:


https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2716811-Statement-from-the-FBI-Feb-20-2016.html


----------



## qrwteyrutiyoup (Mar 4, 2016)

Now a dormant cyber pathogen, and it's not even April 1st yet...


http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/03/san-bernardino-da-says-seized-iphone-may-hold-dormant-cyber-pathogen/


----------



## DomainBop (Mar 4, 2016)

qrwteyrutiyoup said:


> Now a dormant cyber pathogen, and it's not even April 1st yet...
> 
> 
> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/03/san-bernardino-da-says-seized-iphone-may-hold-dormant-cyber-pathogen/



Why am I suddenly reminded of Colin Powell's address to the UN Security Council about those elusive Iraqi WMD's?



> "The iPhone is a county owned telephone that may have connected to the San Bernardino County computer network. The seized iPhone may contain evidence that can only be found on the seized phone that it was used as a weapon to introduce a lying dormant cyber pathogen that endangers San Bernardino's infrastructure," according to a court filing


----------



## DomainBop (Mar 7, 2016)

Different country but another case of a government demanding that the tech industry decypt data for them:



> *French Parliament Votes For Law That Would Put Tech Execs In Jail If They Don't Decrypt Data*
> 
> 
> The controversial amendment, drafted by the rightwing opposition, stipulates that a private company which refuses to hand over encrypted data to an investigating authority would face up to five years in jail and a €350,000 (£270,000) fine.
> ...



full article: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160304/23422933811/french-parliament-votes-law-that-would-put-tech-execs-jail-if-they-dont-decrypt-data.shtml (the French Parliament voted in favor of the law last Thursday March 3rd)


----------



## drmike (Mar 10, 2016)

DomainBop said:


> Different country but another case of a government demanding that the tech industry decypt data for them:
> 
> 
> full article: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160304/23422933811/french-parliament-votes-law-that-would-put-tech-execs-jail-if-they-dont-decrypt-data.shtml (the French Parliament voted in favor of the law last Thursday March 3rd)



Government control freaks are a universal plague.   Well intentioned it might all sound on their part.  Shortsighted though and never will end well.


This is why we need open systems more than ever.   So we don't have these forced mandates on commerce.


The phone and tablet model is busted in my opinion.  We buy the devices and they come with the software from the manufacturer.  The software often these days creates a locked down and stuck in environment.  Meaning the device is obsolete when shipped.


There is plenty of mobile and tablet hardware out there unused and worthless due to locked down environment and lack of reuse at this point.  Eventually this is going to have to stop.  Sheer volume of devices being created and tossed in landfill or parts bin is insane.


Hoping Stallman'esque movement gets really going to open up devices and provide actual software alternatives.   Now we have what iOS and Android (and its bastard offsprings).  Meh.  That's not really choice or good for anything.


----------

