# If a client's VPS is suspended, do you still send them an invoice for next month?



## Dillybob (Jun 20, 2015)

Topic. Because I just received an invoice from CVPS even though my VPS is suspended. Do you honestly believe I'm going to pay that? I think not.

Want to hear your opinions.


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## MannDude (Jun 20, 2015)

Standard procedure.

Even in the suspended state it's consuming resources on the server (storage) and ideally the provider is 'reserving' resources for the container awaiting for it to be reactivated by payment (assuming it's suspended for non-payment). Say, if your VPS is suspended and your provider has a hard limit of 100 VPSes per node your container is effectively using a slot on the node and preventing them from selling that slot to someone else who'd actually use it until you're either terminated for non-payment or take two minutes to do a cancellation request properly.

Why is it suspended? If you don't have any intention of renewing it then it'd be a good idea to just cancel it. Non-payment doesn't equal cancellation and sometimes it may take a billing cycle, two or three for your abandoned container to be terminated. The invoices generated before that time I believe should still be due in my opinion.

EDIT: Though it's not like you'll actually ever be taken to collections over a few dollars. More of a hassle than it's worth to pursue from a provider's standpoint, though I do believe the invoice generation on suspended services is a normal feature of WHMCS.


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## Dillybob (Jun 20, 2015)

MannDude said:


> Standard procedure.
> 
> Even in the suspended state it's consuming resources on the server (storage) and ideally the provider is 'reserving' resources for the container awaiting for it to be reactivated by payment (assuming it's suspended for non-payment). Say, if your VPS is suspended and your provider has a hard limit of 100 VPSes per node your container is effectively using a slot on the node and preventing them from selling that slot to someone else who'd actually use it until you're either terminated for non-payment or take two minutes to do a cancellation request properly.
> 
> Why is it suspended? If you don't have any intention of renewing it then it'd be a good idea to just cancel it. Non-payment doesn't equal cancellation and sometimes it may take a billing cycle, two or three for your abandoned container to be terminated. The invoices generated before that time I believe should still be due in my opinion.


Fair Enough. I just thought it was silly they would send me an invoice for it when it's suspended for 'Abuse'.

I used LOIC and some OSWASP Http flood tools to test some udp flood / nginx limiting rules / iptables. It was a 75 cent box, and I did some bad stuff to it so they had every right to suspend me. I just found it odd even after that they would want me back on their servers LOL. (Sadly, learning about how iptables work, I found out that udp flooding is essentially unstoppable at the software level firewall and that iptables limit/drop rules barely have an effect and that the data has to go somewhere). So I posted my question here: http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/91548/how-to-mitigate-udp-flood-attacks on how to mitigate udp flood attacks and basically your upstream provider needs to mess with their firewall (Server admin) and you can do only so much at the firewall software level.

I'm sure you already know about that, but that's why I used CVPS and their box to test it because I wanted to learn how it works and the best way to mitigate them. I remember seeing 44MB/s on 'iftop' (Im not sure if that's a bad flood or not lol), but I think I used less than 10gb of bandwidth (the box came with 500gb). I am just going to end up buying a DDOS protected ip from BUYVM and tunnel it to the main server (most likely).


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## Dillybob (Jun 20, 2015)

Also to note, I find it absolutely hilarious how anyone would want to use them because when I did my LOIC flooding with udp, I would literally leave it on for 5 seconds and send thousands of udp flooding packets. And your host would suspend you for that? That speaks volumes about how easy it would be for some other person who has 10000x more knowledge than me, to udp flood my box and I would get suspended faster than you could say 'GREENVALUEHOST'.

In other words, a ddos/filtered protected ip is a must nowadays I assume.

So lesson learned.. always get a ddos protected ip, and tunnel that fucker. And have the best iptables for limiting you can and drop everything except for needed ports. That's what I'm planning to do in the future anyways.


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## DomainBop (Jun 20, 2015)

MannDude said:


> Say, if your VPS is suspended and your provider has a hard limit of 100*0* VPSes per node your container is effectively using a slot on the node


Fixed that for you by adding an extra 0 for accuracy because he said the provider was CVPS.


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## KuJoe (Jun 20, 2015)

WHMCS doesn't know why it's suspended and thus it should generate an invoice because the client may wish to continue using the VPS. We have clients who use up all of their bandwidth for the month within a few days, then get suspended, and still pay their invoice weeks later so they can use up their bandwidth again next month.


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## MartinD (Jun 21, 2015)

If its suspended for abuse, why haven't you been in touch with your provider to resolve it?


Or is this an attempt to create more drama?


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

MartinD said:


> If its suspended for abuse, why haven't you been in touch with your provider to resolve it?
> 
> 
> Or is this an attempt to create more drama?


There is not a chance in hell I would give CVPS another penny.


Plus, I'm curious why a provider would still send a client an invoice if their box is suspended. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever, especially, when the client was suspended for 'Abuse'. Why would a provider want him back on their node? Doesn't make any sense. Regardless if it's a WHMCS problem, a provider should know and take care of it should they not?


I still have not heard one good reason why a host would send an invoice to a client's vps that was shut down for 'abuse'. Unless, a provider is just wanting to try to get as much money as possible and then re-suspend them again? Wouldn't that go against the ethical standards of running a business?


Logically speaking, if I was a provider (which i'll never be, just a hypothetical). If I suspended a client for abuse, I would not welcome them back on any node as they could be potentially dangerous. But in this case, they send me an invoice? Red Flag imo. As I said, it doesn't make any sense. Generously curious not trying to start drama.


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## MartinD (Jun 21, 2015)

Could be a compromised VPS and they are unaware.


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## drmike (Jun 21, 2015)

The 75 cent boxes are a gas.  

Seriously, what are these companies thinking such is going to be used for?  It's nearly bad as such calling it free VPS - as much of a deterrent and attempt to find legit customers.

Yes, some brands sell cheap 64MB, 96MB, etc.  but yeah... Most are crap magnets and horror as a result of these sorts of plans.

And @Dillybob, why the freaking abuse pal?


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

drmike said:


> The 75 cent boxes are a gas.
> 
> Seriously, what are these companies thinking such is going to be used for?  It's nearly bad as such calling it free VPS - as much of a deterrent and attempt to find legit customers.
> 
> ...



I used it to test iptables against LOIC's udp flooding tool and other stuff. (Which iptables basically does nothing against udp flood, you can drop all packets but it still hits the server   )  I also created this folder with a bunch of beautiful install scripts and linux functions that I wrote that is available to me before I go live 



I pretty much used it as a sandbox server. So I understand the abuse part, but I don't understand why I would get invoiced for next month... Why the fuck would they want me back?


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## drmike (Jun 21, 2015)

Dillybob said:


> I pretty much used it as a sandbox server. So I understand the abuse part, but I don't understand why I would get invoiced for next month... Why the fuck would they want me back?


If they suspended for abuse you would think that would stop invoices and boot your marketing list.  I am unsure how WHMCS works... but if it doesn't tie these things, then more dev needed.  Abuse happens a ton.

Have fun and enjoy your lifetime of free complimentary CVPS email spams.


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## KuJoe (Jun 21, 2015)

Dillybob said:


> I still have not heard one good reason why a host would send an invoice to a client's vps that was shut down for 'abuse'.


Then you aren't reading any replies. I gave you an extremely good reason. How does WHMCS/Blesta/HostBill/etc... know you were suspended for abuse? Do you think providers generate invoices by hand?


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## Flapadar (Jun 21, 2015)

Plus just because abuse has happened doesn't mean it was intentional.


I'm sure many customers would be mad if they got terminated the moment their server was compromised, rather than it being suspended and given a chance to say "wasn't me", look into it and solve the problem.


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

KuJoe said:


> Then you aren't reading any replies. I gave you an extremely good reason. How does WHMCS/Blesta/HostBill/etc... know you were suspended for abuse? Do you think providers generate invoices by hand?


But why would WHMCS do it in the first-place, and shouldn't the host have control and know who's being invoiced for what and when?  

I understand it might be an automatic thing that WHMCS does, but I don't want to sound disrespectful but that cannot be used as an excuse.  Just my 2 cents.



Flapadar said:


> Plus just because abuse has happened doesn't mean it was intentional.
> 
> I'm sure many customers would be mad if they got terminated the moment their server was compromised, rather than it being suspended and given a chance to say "wasn't me", look into it and solve the problem.



Well, I think the suspension status is fine and you're right client's would get mad if they got terminated. But I'm talking about after that point, when the next billing month comes and they still have a suspended status, why invoice them when both parties aren't even in agreement which each other or on good grounds?

Shouldn't an invoice be sent when you're on good grounds with a customer and are confident that they will pay?


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## GIANT_CRAB (Jun 21, 2015)

Dillybob said:


> But why would WHMCS do it in the first-place, and shouldn't the host have control and know who's being invoiced for what and when?
> 
> I understand it might be an automatic thing that WHMCS does, but I don't want to sound disrespectful but that cannot be used as an excuse.  Just my 2 cents.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's why hosts should switch to Blesta, amirite? hue hue


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

GIANT_CRAB said:


> Yeah, that's why hosts should switch to Blesta, amirite? hue hue


Havn't actually heard of this before. Is it going to surpass WHMCS? Their site looks promising, I'll look more into it.

Edit: Just tested their admin panel, blah.. I hate how we cannot click on the menu's to activate them and they are activated on onmouseover events.. the fuck? LOL.


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## kcaj (Jun 21, 2015)

Dillybob said:


> Havn't actually heard of this before. Is it going to surpass WHMCS? Their site looks promising, I'll look more into it.
> 
> Edit: Just tested their admin panel, blah.. I hate how we cannot click on the menu's to activate them and they are activated on onmouseover events.. the fuck? LOL.


@Licensecart


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## perennate (Jun 21, 2015)

This is a silly feature that only one person in the solar system cares about.

If a virtual machine is suspended for abuse / other terms of service violation, but hasn't yet been terminated yet, that implies that the client still has a chance to resolve the issue (and yes, this is 100% your fault since you violated the terms of service by mounting a packet flood attack against their network) with the provider since the data is intact. Since this resolution is possible, and since the provider presumably hasn't set the service to terminate after X days (which is possible in WHMCS AFAIK), why should an invoice not be generated? Maybe the invoice will remind the client to resolve the outstanding issue.

If and when the provider decided that the client is not wanted "back on their servers LOL" then they should proceed to terminate the VM and release any allocated resources. At this point no further invoices should be generated; most hosting billing systems, including WHMCS, do not bill for terminated services.

Bottom line though, the only people who would "benefit" from this are people who abuse their services and that the provider finds undesirable in general. Do you really think the provider cares about these kids complaining when they get an invoice? Especially when all they have to do is login and request to have the service cancelled. Provider has more important things to do.

It'd also add undesirable complexity, since you'd need to be careful to distinguish between different kinds of suspensions, making it much harder to "know who's being invoiced for what and when". I can see this being a source of confusion in some circumstances when the provider intended to have the service unsuspended after some amount of time.

I'm also not aware of any providers, even those with custom billing systems and including larger providers, who do this (some providers don't generate an invoice until you opt to renew the service, but they would still send billing due date reminders, which is basically the same thing in this context).


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

perennate said:


> I'm also not aware of any providers, even those with custom billing systems and including larger providers, *who do this (some providers don't generate an invoice until you opt to renew the service*, but they would still send billing due date reminders, which is basically the same thing in this context).


Bingo. That's how it's supposed to be!   Don't be fooled or mislead by WHMCS or other billing systems that do it wrong *and don't let provides use it as an excuse. *

 WHMCS worst of the billing industry video will be made about this if I can gather proof that the system does send automated invoices on suspended vps's. I need screenshots from a provider of the setting if it's optional/etc. Please pm me, thanks.


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## perennate (Jun 21, 2015)

Dillybob said:


> *and don't let provides use it as an excuse. *


Ah, so should I DDoS my providers and then blast them when they send me invoice for suspended service?


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

perennate said:


> Ah, so should I DDoS my providers and then blast them when they send me invoice for suspended service?


What are you even talking about? Why would they send you an invoice in the first place, when the provider knows beforehand that you're going to abuse the system? Doesn't make sense. Unless, you blame it on WCHMS's automated 'billing' system.  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:


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## perennate (Jun 21, 2015)

If they know that you're going to abuse the system, then the service will be terminated rather than suspended. This has been stated many times, your failure to comprehend it is really starting to get annoying.


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

perennate said:


> If they know that you're going to abuse the system, then the service will be terminated rather than suspended. This has been stated many times, your failure to comprehend it is really starting to get annoying.


That calls for speculation is 100% subjective and is irrelevant because that's not even what happened to my box.  I'm pretty sure I would of been suspended either way.  You're just throwing straw man argument in the air in hopes of my arrogance to try to latch onto one of your hooks. Your failure of comprehending what is good and bad business practices is getting annoying too.


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## MartinD (Jun 21, 2015)

No, he's right. You're turning into an ignorant and arrogant asshat. Its not impressing anyone.


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

MartinD said:


> No, he's right. You're turning into an ignorant and arrogant asshat. Its not impressing anyone.


So you think my first-time with CVPS I would of been terminated instead of suspended for ddosing my own box? I was suspended and here is the fact to prove it:



But they still insist of invoicing me. I'm not here to impress anyone, but why would they invoice me if they know I was 'DOSing' their servers? Wouldn't they want me gone? Or terminate me? That's what I don't get, and there is no reason for you to start being rude and throw insults at me, I have done nothing to you.

If anything, if this is a WCHMS issue with automated billing, it's WCHMS's fault and not the provider. But I need proof of this first before I make my video.


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## zed (Jun 21, 2015)

Is this where I sign up to be a warrior for VPS justice?


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

zed said:


> Is this where I sign up to be a warrior for VPS justice?



Someone needs to step up and expose these dirty business practices. Provider's cannot get away with this and it needs to stop.


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## RLT (Jun 21, 2015)

It's automation there a many threads where people ask why???? They always blame it on automation and the maybe could be's. 

If prices weren't so barely making a profit they could have the abuse suspensions manually vetted. However that would cost more then they make.


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## William (Jun 21, 2015)

> If a virtual machine is suspended for abuse / other terms of service violation, but hasn't yet been terminated yet, that implies that the client still has a chance to resolve the issue (and yes, this is 100% your fault since you violated the terms of service by mounting a packet flood attack against their network) with the provider since the data is intact. Since this resolution is possible, and since the provider presumably hasn't set the service to terminate after X days (which is possible in WHMCS AFAIK), why should an invoice not be generated? Maybe the invoice will remind the client to resolve the outstanding issue.


This. No need for a shitty video - You are not terminated because you can still fix the issue, thus you are also invoiced. Simple.


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

William said:


> This. No need for a shitty video - You are not terminated because you can still fix the issue, thus you are also invoiced. Simple.


So it's okay for provider's to send an invoice (demand of payment) to a client that has a non-working service? That seems very wrong imo.

Example, for a phone company to issue an invoice for next month, but your phone line hasn't work for 2 weeks. Do you think that customer will be happy about that? It's disrespectful and makes no sense. Stop defending provider's that participate in bad business practices. It's disrespectful to the customer and unethical.

You still have not articulated a good argument. Your argument is 'the issue can still be fixed' (Which is a hypothetical), gives a business the right to invoice you? Lol what?

Wait, let me ask you this:

Why would a host want someone who dos'd the network back on their server? Can you explain that please? Because like you said... the problem can still be 'fixed'. LOL

Edit: Like I said before, there is really no good argument you guys can make lol.


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## William (Jun 21, 2015)

> Edit: Like I said before, there is really no good argument you guys can make lol.


My argument is *VERY* good, again in simple terms for idiots:

1.: Service is suspended

2.: YOU CAN FIX THIS BY CONTACTING THEM, IT IS NOT TERMINATED

3.: Thus you get an invoice

Simple as that. The service is not terminated, thus you get an invoice.



> Why would a host want someone who dos'd the network back on their server? Can you explain that please? Because like you said... the problem can still be 'fixed'. LOL


90%+ will give a DDoS victim a second chance - i've seen that HUNDREDS of times and gave this reasoning to HUNDREDS of customers as well.

If you contact them they will unsuspend it and done, simple as that again.


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

William said:


> 90%+ will give a DDoS victim a second chance - i've seen that HUNDREDS of times and gave this reasoning to HUNDREDS of customers as well.



That just proves perennate's point by saying they will usually 'terminate' you for a ddos LMAO. 



William said:


> My argument is *VERY* good, again in simple terms for idiots:
> 
> 1.: Service is suspended
> 
> ...



You're misinformed. Step 2 did not take place when they issued my invoice. The invoice was sent to me w/o them contacting me.... Thus, why?  Shouldn't the provider have an open communication line open with their client about the suspended VPS before sending an invoice over?  #2 did not happen to me, the invoice was already sent with no communication regarding if I wanted to continue their service.

Also, keep your ad-hominen attacks at the door, it just lowers any credibility you had.


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## MartinD (Jun 21, 2015)

I think it's more about your blatant lack of understanding and intelligence that you can't grasp the concept. 'LOL'


Screaming that you think it's wrong and making videos doesn't change that. 'LOL'


If you step back and look at it from and intelligent persons perspective your realise that it's entirely normal behaviour for a provider to operate this way. 'LOL'


If you don't like it, don't pay it. Don't come on here moaning and bitching about something that's entirely of your own doing AND legitimate business practice.


'LOL'


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

MartinD said:


> If you don't like it, don't pay it. Don't come on here moaning and bitching about something that's entirely of your own doing AND legitimate business practice.



TIL that sending  a customer an invoice even when they have a suspended service (doesn't work) is a legitimate business practice.

I'll be damned.. I hope you're trolling.

Edit: I'd much rather use 'LOL' than call people 'idiot's' and use ad-hominen attacks. I don't see you bashing him for name-calling, double standard much?  I never once insulted anyone, but it's obvious you're favoring other users on this forum, which is very sad.


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## William (Jun 21, 2015)

> TIL that sending  a customer an invoice even when they have a suspended service (doesn't work) is a legitimate business practice.


It is.



> That just proves perennate's point by saying they will usually 'terminate' you for a ddos LMAO.


CVPS does NOT TERMINATE YOU on your first DDoS attack. Tested by myself and others.

You can contact them and they will reactivate the server.


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

William said:


> It is.


No it's not. Sending an invoice to a customer that has service that doesn't even work is unethical and disrespectful.  That's not proper business practice.

Proper business practice would be to open a line of communication with the client and reach a conclusion of his/her service with you, then send the appropriate invoice over.

Hell, I know more about the hosting industry than you, and I'm not even a provider.


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## MartinD (Jun 21, 2015)

Dillybob said:


> TIL that sending a customer an invoice even when they have a suspended service (doesn't work) is a legitimate business practice.
> 
> 
> I'll be damned.. I hope you're trolling.
> ...


You are craving attention. You are clearly trolling our users. You have contributed nothing of any value thus far. I'd even go so far as to say that other users on another forum are bang on the money regarding you and your attitude.


Clearly, unless people align with your opinion then they are wrong and, for you to be calling out bad business practices when you have zero experience of such just shows exactly how deep your ignorance runs.


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## Licensecart (Jun 21, 2015)

Dillybob said:


> But why would WHMCS do it in the first-place, and shouldn't the host have control and know who's being invoiced for what and when?
> 
> I understand it might be an automatic thing that WHMCS does, but I don't want to sound disrespectful but that cannot be used as an excuse.  Just my 2 cents.
> 
> ...


A lot of people here know I hate WHMCS but I have to say WHMCS only suspends you if:

1. The invoice hasn't been paid... so you get suspended for non payment.

2. The third party software (cPanel, SolusVM) tell it that it's been suspended.

You can just click suspend on any billing system to overwrite the function and suspend / un-suspend. What do you expect the billing system to do be so advanced it can read your mind why it's being suspended or ask you every time why you are suspended?

And for some posts above Blesta does it the same was as the above as most systems .



MartinD said:


> You are craving attention. You are clearly trolling our users. You have contributed nothing of any value thus far. I'd even go so far as to say that other users on another forum are bang on the money regarding you and your attitude.


It's like another Jon haha.


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

MartinD said:


> You are craving attention. You are clearly trolling our users. You have contributed nothing of any value thus far. I'd even go so far as to say that other users on another forum are bang on the money regarding you and your attitude.
> 
> 
> Clearly, unless people align with your opinion then they are wrong and, for you to be calling out bad business practices when you have zero experience of such just shows exactly how deep your ignorance runs.


Not trolling anyone, lol. You're over-thinking this whole thing.

It's not an opinion. You are not supposed to invoice someone if they don't have a service that is working, you should know that. And AnthonySmith @ LET agree's with me as well: http://lowendtalk.com/discussion/comment/1127073/#Comment_1127073



> I have around 7000 customers, I suspend people weekly for abuse, I do this by emailing them the suspend reason then opening a ticket i.e. the* line of communication*, what I do not then do is prevent any future invoices from being generated, because if the issue is sorted out and it was not malicious then the invoice is still due!



This is the problem with forums these days, just because you cannot articulate a valid argument and are wrong, you think people are just 'trolling'. It's sad.

But please, continue to act on your bad business practices. You could retain a larger customer pool if you wouldn't be so closed-minded  for once and actually care for clients before just 'invoicing them' when they have a suspended VPS. Makes zero sense.

What's even worse is, provider's become so arrogant that they don't even realize that they're doing this and think it's just the 'norm'. As evident in this thread, absolutely hilarious and sickening at the same time.


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## William (Jun 21, 2015)

> just because you cannot articulate a valid argument and are wrong, you think people are just 'trolling'. It's sad.



Again, my argument is very valid and footed on 5 years+ business experience both as owner, worker and user. What is your qualification, a year of high school?


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## MartinD (Jun 21, 2015)

You're misquoting him.


He still sends an invoice if it's suspended which is what you asked. Also, with WHMCS specifically, you can email a suspension reason. That is a line of communication as you so adamantly demanded.


So, where is your argument? If it's just to have a go at CVPS then do it elsewhere.


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

MartinD said:


> You're misquoting him.
> 
> He still sends an invoice if it's suspended which is what you asked. Also, with WHMCS specifically, you can email a suspension reason. That is a line of communication as you so adamantly demanded.
> 
> So, where is your argument? If it's just to have a go at CVPS then do it elsewhere.


 
How am I misquoting him?

'I do this by emailing them the suspend reason then opening a ticket i.e. the* line of communication*, '

He opens a line of communication with the client to discuss the reason for suspension. That's what you're SUPPOSED to do.

My argument is: It shows that you care about the client, and it will retain customer relationship management and potentially have them actually pay the invoice once you reach an agreement with them. It also shows professionalism and compassion towards customers.

Your argument: Just send the invoice anyway and 'I hope they contact me if they want their vps unsuspended', right?

See the difference? My argument holds way more weight than yours (if that is what your argument is). Especially in a business sense.


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## MartinD (Jun 21, 2015)

Well, in the 15 years I've been doing it MY way I have yet to have a complaint about it.


But what would I know. You're the expert.


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

MartinD said:


> Well, in the 15 years I've been doing it MY way I have yet to have a complaint about it.
> 
> But what would I know. You're the expert.


Probably because the customer didn't want to submit a ticket? Same thing is happening to me right now. I don't want to submit a ticket... but if CVPS actually emailed me and opened a line of communication I most likely would of paid that $1.50 invoice again. Get what I'm saying?

What do you think would of happened if you initialized the ticket instead? I think you could attain a larger customer pool by showing the customer you want them back and you'll talk with them as why it was suspended/etc. (This is ofcourse you want customers that were suspended for dos back on your servers lol)

But since I just saw the invoice being generated, that shows to me that they just want my money and don't care. So why should I submit a ticket and ask for it to get unsuspended..


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## HenriqueSousa - WebUp 24/7 (Jun 21, 2015)

Dillybob said:


> How am I misquoting him?
> 
> 
> 'I do this by emailing them the suspend reason then opening a ticket i.e. the* line of communication*, '
> ...


When a client is suspended all the providers generally click on the little checkbox to notify the client, this opens the line of communication. If the client decides to open a ticket and try to solve the issue it is one thing, if it just ignores and goes to forums like you are doing to just hurt a provider or all the providers that just automate their internal systems.

In my opinion providers always try to solve issues by speaking with the customers, but this is a 2 way communication and the provider can't force the client to communicate.

Also the invoice creation is an automatic procedure to all the Billing Systems, the providers cannot be monitoring every single invoice that is generated, we have other tasks that need to be completed, like tickets...


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## MartinD (Jun 21, 2015)

I've never lost a customer through it, the only ones I've 'lost' were intentionally abusing the system, much like you were.


Difference being they realised they were doing wrong and didn't then moan about it on forums.


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

HenriqueSousa - WebUp 24/7 said:


> When a client is suspended all the providers generally click on the little checkbox to notify the client, this opens the line of communication. If the client decides to open a ticket and try to solve the issue it is one thing, if it just ignores and goes to forums like you are doing to just hurt a provider or all the providers that just automate their internal systems.
> 
> In my opinion providers always try to solve issues by speaking with the customers, but this is a 2 way communication and the provider can't force the client to communicate.
> 
> Also the invoice creation is an automatic procedure to all the Billing Systems, the providers cannot be monitoring every single invoice that is generated, we have other tasks that need to be completed, like tickets...


I was never notified by email that my vps was suspended though. If I was, then that would be a open line of communication and I probably would of never even made this topic now that I think of it.


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## HenriqueSousa - WebUp 24/7 (Jun 21, 2015)

Dillybob said:


> Probably because the customer didn't want to submit a ticket? Same thing is happening to me right now. I don't want to submit a ticket... but if CVPS actually emailed me and opened a line of communication I most likely would of paid that $1.50 invoice again. Get what I'm saying?
> 
> 
> What do you think would of happened if you initialized the ticket instead? I think you could attain a larger customer pool by showing the customer you want them back and you'll talk with them as why it was suspended/etc. (This is ofcourse you want customers that were suspended for dos back on your servers lol)
> ...


In my opinion providers like me in the passed tried to open a ticket and wait for a client response, a ticket that stays open for weeks because clients do not answer.

Opening tickets is not the solution for the provider to notify the client, the current way that WHMCS has implemented, is the best way to inform the clients.

- Henrique


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

MartinD said:


> I've never lost a customer through it, the only ones I've 'lost' were intentionally abusing the system, much like you were.
> 
> Difference being they realised they were doing wrong and didn't then moan about it on forums.


Not moaning about it, trying to spread awareness at how you can obtain a larger customer pool. For any provider, really.

I am the customer, you need to realize that. Your customer days are over, you are a provider now. Different reality we both share.

Cancer is different from a doctor's perspective as compared to the young kid that has it, is it not? Same thing here. I am a customer, and I have a different perspective than provider's, and unfortunately, you should always listen to customers.


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## HenriqueSousa - WebUp 24/7 (Jun 21, 2015)

Dillybob said:


> I was never notified by email that my vps was suspended though. If I was, then that would be a open line of communication and I probably would of never even made this topic now that I think of it.


If that is true, why are you calling all the providers to this discussion, this should be a CVPS thread.


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## MartinD (Jun 21, 2015)

Dillybob said:


> Not moaning about it, trying to spread awareness at how you can obtain a larger customer pool. For any provider, really.
> 
> 
> I am the customer, you need to realize that. Your customer days are over, you are a provider now. Different reality we both share.
> ...


That's your big mistake. I am a customer too so I can see it from both perspectives and unfortunately, you are wrong; we shouldn't always listen to customers as contrary to popular belief they are NOT always right.


Your beef is with CVPS. Take it up with them.


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

HenriqueSousa - WebUp 24/7 said:


> If that is true, why are you calling all the providers to this discussion, this should be a CVPS thread.


Because I never knew about all this WHCMS and their 'automated invoice emailing' bullshit until I made these threads.

But it's a general question to all provider's.

What I believe should happen:

1) Host suspends client's vps

2) Automatic Ticket should be created to open a line of communication to keep the customer engaged if they feel like they want to repent/discuss why t hey were 'abusing the system' (for example in my case, dos testing my own box with LOIC).

3) Host can think about what's going and discuss the issue within ticket with the client so they can reach an agreement of some sort.

4) Once that communication is good between the host & client, it would now be appropriate to send that customer an invoice. (For next month ofcourse)

This is not an issue with CVPS only. It's to all hosting providers that do this as well.


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

MartinD said:


> That's your big mistake. I am a customer too so I can see it from both perspectives and unfortunately, you are wrong; we shouldn't always listen to customers as contrary to popular belief they are NOT always right.
> 
> Your beef is with CVPS. Take it up with them.


In this case I am right though .

Opening a line of communication to a suspended client's VPS before invoicing would be the best thing to do instead of just throwing them an invoice and 'hoping they submit a ticket'. I have a feeling I know you know this but just don't want to say it because it saves you time with dealing with suspended clients. And I am telling you, if you were to do it my way you would retain a larger customer pool. But wait, the customers are always wrong right?

Unless, ofcourse, their suspension was due to a massive DDoS and then in that case, yea, you have the right to terminate them. But by that point, an invoice wouldn't of been sent.


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## RLT (Jun 21, 2015)

A lot of the emails WHMCS is supposed to send seem to be blackholed at times. I think we all agree that the suspension notice should be/ have been sent.

Just from personal experience, I'll have to say that a lot of the suspension and other email/tickets never get opened.

On a side note, from the sounds of it you're all a bunch of kids to me, I'm closer to 60 then to 50.


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## HenriqueSousa - WebUp 24/7 (Jun 21, 2015)

Dillybob said:


> Because I never knew about all this WHCMS and their 'automated invoice emailing' bullshit until I made these threads.
> 
> 
> But it's a general question to all provider's.
> ...


If that is what you believe should be done, just talk with the developers of the Billing Systems, providers will not dedicate development budget to this situation.



Dillybob said:


> In this case I am right though .
> 
> 
> Opening a line of communication to a suspended client's VPS before invoicing would be the best thing to do instead of just throwing them an invoice and 'hoping they submit a ticket'. I have a feeling I know you know this but just don't want to say it because it saves you time with dealing with suspended clients. And I am telling you, if you were to do it my way you would retain a larger customer pool. But wait, the customers are always wrong right?
> ...


What you are saying about a larger customer pool is debatable, you cannot guarantee that has a customer. Providers usually know the best solution for their clients, as a customer you can only suggest not demand on this types of situations.

- Henrique


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## telephone (Jun 21, 2015)

​


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

That's entirely my point. The term 'invoice' isn't even used correctly in the hosting industry anymore. It's become just another loosely used 'term'. It's quite sad really... But that was pretty funny, not gonna lie.


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## Amitz (Jun 21, 2015)

That's not your point. That is telling you that you are annoying. Get it.


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## Dillybob (Jun 21, 2015)

Amitz said:


> That's not your point. That is telling you that you are annoying. Get it.


Yeah because I'm everyone's 'bitch' here under this forum and I must kneel before all provider's. That logic.


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## Amitz (Jun 21, 2015)

Oh, well...


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## AuroraZero (Jun 21, 2015)

Amitz said:


> Oh, well...


Exactly get over it and move on. Do not pay it and tell them to GTFO. It is not like they are going to come knocking on your door tomorrow with gun and ball bats demanding their $1.50. Shit I have been billed by some comapnies months after I have lefted them and I do not go around posting all over. Shit happens you move on and life goes on. I have other stuff worry about, and could give two rat's asses if whcms or blesta bills if some one is suspended. I have my own bills to pay and even if it happened to me I would not care then, because I would be suspended and not paying anyways.


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## KuJoe (Jun 21, 2015)

I tried using this argument today and my mortgage company said I still needed to pay them even if I wasn't able to live in the house. The car finance company also doesn't care that I'm not driving the car, I still have to make my monthly payments. It's a tough world we live in where we need to take responsibility for our own actions.


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## AuroraZero (Jun 21, 2015)

Yeah I can see where you are coming from, in this instance. I am just trying to get him to nut up and be a man about things and stop this whining crap. I cancel any service I am not going to use and do not abuse the services I do use, so I have never had any terminated in this fashion, but even I had I would cancel them and move on.

I would not waste my time and the provider's over something so trivial as this, and I certainly would not post on two forums about it. In fact I have wasted too much of both of our time trying to get him to nut up over this crap as it is. I should have wrote him off as a lost cause and went about my day working on my project that I almost a year behind on now as it is, or fixing my seriously outdated blog.


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## KuJoe (Jun 21, 2015)

@AuroraZero I want to clarify my last post wasn't directed at you, sorry if it seemed like it.


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## AuroraZero (Jun 21, 2015)

@KuJoe I know it wasn't man and no hard feelings or anything between us. It is all good I just wanted to clarify I knew where providers stand and how things work is all.


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## drmike (Jun 21, 2015)

Dillybob said:


> Because I never knew about all this WHCMS and their 'automated invoice emailing' bullshit until I made these threads.
> 
> 
> But it's a general question to all provider's.
> ...


I feel this is as a customer how I'd hope things go.  I don't know if WHMCS supports such logic without more development / addon.   It's in essence a paused / on vacation account.  The VPS is still there using disk, but offline. Billing isn't really being incurred as offense happened in already paid for month.

I know I am stepping on landmines with this.. but.... isn't this really a problem with pre-billing vs. post billing.  If you use a service like DigitalOcean, your invoice is for services prior rendered.  If your container was put offline for abuse or other matters 15 days into the prior month, your end of month bill should reflect 50% of the monthly price.   In these pre-billing models, you pay ahead $5 a month, run into abuse on the 15th, get account paused.  Come end of month you are being pursued to pay for the next month, regardless of what the issue is or even if you have services.  Short of them cancelling your account, the emails and payment requests will happen (precisely why the PayPal auto payment / subscription I do not use - EVER).


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## drmike (Jun 21, 2015)

Also, KuJoe mentioned about car payments, mortgage, etc.  All of those transactions involve heaps of paperwork and regulatory oversight from every side.   You signed a legally binding contract, perhaps multiple to have that stuff.  Your payment terms are linear EVERY month until the debt is satisfied.   This is in stark contrast to hosting services that are at-will and bear no terms and no contract.

If you drive your car or not matters not a bit.  All that matters is you entered into agreement to pay that month and all the others in order until the debt is satisfied.   A VPS doesn't work like this, although lots of providers just love those customers on autobill and long pre-paid that never use their services.  It allows for profit maximization by the host and more packing on nodes.  In this way VPS and hosting is a unique animal.   If automobile lender or real estate financier took your debt note and played games afterwards to maximize profits there would likely be issues.  This happened with derivatives when banks/lenders got greedy and started selling real estate debts off in risk pools and also started leveraging insurance against said pools.

To parallel this all to VPS world though, a traditional lender would have to  profit by diminishing the performance of your vehicle post purchase leading to profit opportunity increase.  Something like remotely adjusting the onboard computers to break or perform wrong, thus forcing a service order where they get a referral fee.  This will start happening soon enough.  Probably already is from the manufacturers.


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## sleddog (Jun 22, 2015)

drmike said:


> This will start happening soon enough.  Probably already is from the manufacturers.


It is, and it's called *planned obsolescence.* If you bought a major appliance like a refrigerator in 1980, you could expect it to last 20 years. Buy one now and you might, if you're lucky, have it for 10 years -- probably with a few service calls during that time to replace onboard electronics.


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## Dillybob (Jun 22, 2015)

KuJoe said:


> I tried using this argument today and my mortgage company said I still needed to pay them even if I wasn't able to live in the house. The car finance company also doesn't care that I'm not driving the car, I still have to make my monthly payments. It's a tough world we live in where we need to take responsibility for our own actions.


Mortgage is totally different than an invoice being sent when you have a non-working service... You didn't even use my argument / point correctly (most likely because you cannot comprehend what I'm saying), but I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt. So let's say: Would you pay a mortgage on a house you don't even live in or own? (Hint: The answer is no)


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## MartinD (Jun 22, 2015)

Many people pay mortgages on houses they don't live in.

Try again.


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## Dillybob (Jun 22, 2015)

MartinD said:


> Many people pay mortgages on houses they don't live in.
> 
> Try again.


Re-read my post as you failed to see my edit. (OR OWN).

Try again.


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## MartinD (Jun 22, 2015)

Dillybob said:


> *Would you pay a mortgage on a house you don't even live in* or own? (Hint: The answer is no)





MartinD said:


> *Many people pay mortgages on houses they don't live in*.
> 
> Try again.


It's getting embarrassing.


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## Dillybob (Jun 22, 2015)

MartinD said:


> It's getting embarrassing.


You think I'm embarrassed infront of provider's like yourself that don't open a line of communication to your client when they're suspended before you invoice them? Wow, you really showed me! I am so embarrassed.... God help me.

I can nit-pick any post from anyone, anywhere too. We're all not perfect.

If you're paying mortgage on a house u don't live in, why? Are you on vacation? Moving? That's fine, but how is that relevant to the discussion at hand or relevant to provider's just fishing invoices across their suspended client's VPS's in hopes of them of returning? Doesn't make sense.

Bottom line is, you need to open a line of communication with that client and be on good grounds/discuss the suspension before sending your invoice over. That is good business practice.


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## clarity (Jun 22, 2015)

Dillybob said:


> Bottom line is, you need to open a line of communication with that client and be on good grounds/discuss the suspension before sending your invoice over. That is good business practice.


I think that you are expecting too much from a $.75 plan. Any time that they talk to you they begin losing money. Those plans are at best marginally profitable, and any time spent on them is throwing profit out the window.

As for you receiving an invoice for a suspended service, the service is still technically active. They are just limiting your access to it because you are doing things that you shouldn't do on the server. If you contact them about the suspension, you will get the same machine back with all your data. Hence, the invoice is valid. If you don't care enough to contact them, that is on you. 

As for you calling out their "shady business practices," you should point the finger at yourself. If you weren't doing things that you know you shouldn't do, you would have never gotten suspended. At this point, you are not winning anyone over to your side, and you aren't adding more value to a pretty lackluster argument on your end. I think you are just staring to piss people off.

If that is what you want to do, I guess continue with your actions. Unlike LET, we have some great mods on here that will lose interest with these shenanigans pretty quickly.


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## Dillybob (Jun 22, 2015)

clarity said:


> I think that you are expecting too much from a $.75 plan. Any time that they talk to you they begin losing money. Those plans are at best marginally profitable, and any time spent on them is throwing profit out the window.
> 
> As for you receiving an invoice for a suspended service, the service is still technically active. They are just limiting your access to it because you are doing things that you shouldn't do on the server. If you contact them about the suspension, you will get the same machine back with all your data. Hence, the invoice is valid. If you don't care enough to contact them, that is on you.
> 
> ...


'The service is still technically active'. No it's not. MY VPS is offline, no OS is installed. Nothing, Zip, Zero, Nada.

That's the same logic as saying a phone provider invoices you for next month, but your plan doesn't even work, but they have your telephone # on file so technically it's still "active!". That doesn't make any sense and they would never do that, same thing here 



> "I think that you are expecting too much from a $.75 plan. Any time that they talk to you they begin losing money. Those plans are at best marginally profitable, and any time spent on them is throwing profit out the window."


The whole reason for cheap plans is to gain a larger customer pool, OR to fill up some over-crowded space to get some extra money on the side. They already achieved the second part, they got the 75 cents. But I'm pretty sure any business with a logical CEO would know if you can gain a long lasting customer for 75 cents would be... a steal.

But you don't retain customers by being disrespectful and not opening up a line of communication when they have a suspended VPS and then just invoice them for it. You lose customers that way. And it's NOT Good business practice, it's the opposite. Some of you providers here think it's okay just because WHCMS does it 'automatically', but you cannot use software as an excuse.


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## zed (Jun 22, 2015)

It's like 4 pages later and I'm still not even sure what the actual problem is.

Have you tried just mashing delete on the invoice e-mail?

edit: will you be boycotting providers that send invoices?


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## MartinD (Jun 22, 2015)

You should be embarrassed. Your story/argument constantly changes to fit the pseudo-agenda you're trying to peddle here.
 



Dillybob said:


> You think I'm embarrassed infront of provider's like yourself that don't open a line of communication to your client when they're suspended before you invoice them? Wow, you really showed me! I am so embarrassed.... God help me.


We do open a line of communication with the suspension email - something I already mentioned. If customers chose not to reply then that is their issue, not ours.
 



Dillybob said:


> I can nit-pick any post from anyone, anywhere too. We're all not perfect.


 
Yes, something you have been doing thus far but with very little success.
 



Dillybob said:


> If you're paying mortgage on a house u don't live in, why? Are you on vacation? Moving? That's fine, but how is that relevant to the discussion at hand or relevant to provider's just fishing invoices across their suspended client's VPS's in hopes of them of returning? Doesn't make sense.


I'm guessing in your little bubble-shielded, insular world you know of no people with more than one property. Out in the big bad world where the adults live, there are those with multiple properties. They could be sub let, they could be holiday homes but regardless, many of them are mortgaged and require payment. As @KuJoe mentioned, you can't simply stop paying your mortgage because someone else is living in your home or someone else is on vacation in your Spanish villa.
 



Dillybob said:


> Bottom line is, you need to open a line of communication with that client and be on good grounds/discuss the suspension before sending your invoice over. That is good business practice.


Bottom line is if the client has been knowingly and wilfully abusing the service they automatically forfeit the right to any kind of 'good grounds' on the providers' part.

Edit: Even lower down bottom line; providers and customers are telling you that you are wrong here. If you decide not to listen, that's your business but ultimately, no-one's listening to you any longer.


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## Dillybob (Jun 22, 2015)

MartinD said:


> We do open a line of communication with the suspension email - something I already mentioned. If customers chose not to reply then that is their issue, not ours.


And now you finally say that you do? After 4 pages? Hilarious. You are a very, very arrogant person is all I can say. Takes 4 pages of constant babbling to get that from you. That's all I wanted to know, thanks.

But, in my case, CVPS DID not open that line of communication and that is bad business practice. Don't defend them either, you know damn well you should talk with a client and be on good grounds before sending an invoice over.


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## MartinD (Jun 22, 2015)

Dillybob said:


> But, in my case, CVPS DID not open that line of communication and that is bad business practice.


Then I suggest you take it up with them instead of bitching over here.

I'll use my arrogance to close of this ridiculous thread now. If you think it should remain open feel free to PM me.


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