# Wable Terms of Service



## joepie91 (Jun 12, 2015)

What's with the bizarro Terms of Service?



> Our SLA is applicable only to issues where a customer has opened and paid for a high priority ticket (the $35 high priority ticket fee will be refunded if the issue turns out to be hardware failure).





> Incero may port scan IPs from 23.29.121.146 to discover protocols being used on IPs. In general Incero may typically scan ports once per 24 hour period, however during IPV4 applications (by clients or by Incero to ARIN), an increased amount of scanning may occur. Incero typically only port scans a customer IP when that IP is not responding to ping.





> We reserve the right to disclose information relating to you and your use of our products and services, if such information is disclosed in connection with an investigation or in order to prevent the death of or bodily harm to any individual, as determined by us in our sole discretion.





> Bandwidth used in excess of your allotted amount will be charged at $0.50 per gigabyte of data transfer. We reserve the right to reduce a client’s port speed if the client is expected to exceed their allowance. This cap will remain in place until the client provides a deposit for estimated overages or upgrades their bandwidth plan so that their expected usage will not incur any overages.





> If we determine that your server or services are a DDOS magnet or are otherwise likely to negatviely impact the uptime or performance of our network we reserve the right to suspend or terminate all services in the account without notice.





> When less than $1.50 is due for any partial calendar month the rate for that period will be set to $1.50, this is because we face a certain amount of human costs for processing each order, whereby a human needs to manually review the order and apply anti fraud measures.





> Special offer/discounted servers may not be used to replace existing services. Cancellation of any server will result in promotion pricing being removed from all servers ordered on special offer/discount, regular pricing for all servers will be applied.


And this one, that I'm fairly sure would just be straight-out illegal in the Netherlands:



> Foul, explicit, rude, or abusive language will not be tolerated and may result in immediate account termination without refund.


I was interested at first, but these terms just send me running for the hills. This is decidedly _not_ customer-friendly. And I'm putting it politely.



_*Inserted by MannDude:* Thread was split from this thread _.


----------



## William (Jun 12, 2015)

Yea, they are extremely strange, especially the part with forwarding customer data "an investigation or in order to prevent the death of or bodily harm to any individual" - Not acceptable at all.


----------



## drmike (Jun 12, 2015)

Hopefully Gordon returns to address the Terms questions...  fair to ask these.


----------



## gordonrp (Jun 12, 2015)

William said:


> Yea, they are extremely strange, especially the part with forwarding customer data "an investigation or in order to prevent the death of or bodily harm to any individual" - Not acceptable at all.


We reserve the right to disclose your info to law enforcement without a warrant when we believe a child is in danger, e.g. kidnapping, live stream of CP, etc.

We've been in business since 2008, terms are mostly from Incero, if you don't like the ones about not being a ddos magnet or using foul language, then I am glad you read the terms before signing up!

Thanks for looking,


----------



## joepie91 (Jun 13, 2015)

gordonrp said:


> if you don't like the ones about not being a ddos magnet or using foul language, then I am glad you read the terms before signing up!


You should be aware that if you actively market towards European countries (or otherwise give the impression that European countries are an explicit target demographic to you), you need to comply with the contract laws of those countries. As I said, I'm pretty sure that your "termination with no refund on foul language" clause would be considered flat-out illegal in the Netherlands, and I suspect the same might go for the rest of Europe.

You can't just put anything into a contract here like that.



gordonrp said:


> We reserve the right to disclose your info to law enforcement without a warrant when we believe a child is in danger, e.g. kidnapping, live stream of CP, etc.


Why? Surely said law enforcement agency is perfectly capable of serving you a warrant for it?


----------



## WSWD (Jun 13, 2015)

joepie91 said:


> You should be aware that if you actively market towards European countries (or otherwise give the impression that European countries are an explicit target demographic to you), you need to comply with the contract laws of those countries.


Nonsense!!  You Europeans need to get over yourselves, and realize that a UNITED STATES CORPORATION does not need to comply with your country's contract law.  They comply with the laws of the US and the laws of their state.  If you don't care for the terms, go do business with some European host.  We could care less about your laws.


----------



## joepie91 (Jun 13, 2015)

WSWD said:


> Nonsense!!  You Europeans need to get over yourselves, and realize that a UNITED STATES CORPORATION does not need to comply with your country's contract law.  They comply with the laws of the US and the laws of their state.  If you don't care for the terms, go do business with some European host.  We could care less about your laws.


I don't think you understand how international law works. Contrary to what you seem to think, the US doesn't (legally) rule the world. If a US company does business in another country (and this does not necessarily require a _physical_ presence), then they will typically have to abide by the laws of that country.

"Doing business in another country" is determined through a number of factors, and (at least for many EU countries) a strong factor is whether there's explicit marketing towards the country, or some other clear indication that that country belongs to the target demographic.

If you are running a business and believe that international contract laws do not apply to you just because you're in the US, I recommend you consult a legal professional about this. Things might turn nasty otherwise.


----------



## WSWD (Jun 13, 2015)

I understand international law just fine.  If you think international law applies to small claims (i.e. a $10/mo. VPS), then YOU need to consult a legal professional and learn how things work.

So let's say you have a VPS with me and you feel I violated some idiotic Netherlands contract law.  What recourse do you have?  Are you going to take me to the Netherlands version of small claims court?  Yeah...I'll show up for that.  Are you going to come to the US and take me to small claims court, and say I violated some European law?  The judge would laugh you right out of the courtroom so fast, it wouldn't even be funny.

So what recourse do you have?


----------



## joepie91 (Jun 13, 2015)

WSWD said:


> I understand international law just fine.  If you think international law applies to small claims (i.e. a $10/mo. VPS), then YOU need to consult a legal professional and learn how things work.
> 
> So let's say you have a VPS with me and you feel I violated some idiotic Netherlands contract law.  What recourse do you have?  Are you going to take me to the Netherlands version of small claims court?  Yeah...I'll show up for that.


Sure. Can be ruled ex parte and collected internationally. Whether it's worth the money is a different question, but that doesn't change anything about the legality of it - which is the topic I was talking about to begin with.


----------



## WSWD (Jun 13, 2015)

joepie91 said:


> Sure. Can be ruled ex parte and collected internationally.


Ha ha ha ha!!!  Good luck with that! :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## DomainBop (Jun 13, 2015)

WSWD said:


> So let's say you have a VPS with me and you feel I violated some idiotic Netherlands contract law.  What recourse do you have?  Are you going to take me to the Netherlands version of small claims court?  Yeah...I'll show up for that.  Are you going to come to the US and take me to small claims court, and say I violated some European law?  The judge would laugh you right out of the courtroom so fast, it wouldn't even be funny.
> 
> So what recourse do you have?


Based on a couple of decades of dealing with irrational customers, the customer's recourse would be filing a chargeback with the credit card issuer, and there's a 99% chance the card issuer would side with the cardholder when they found out the merchant refused a refund solely because the customer was angry and used foul language in a ticket.  The card issuer isn't going to give a F that the merchant's TOS said "_I'm sensitive, please don't swear at me"_.



> Foul, explicit, rude, or abusive language will not be tolerated and may result in immediate account termination without refund.


----------



## drmike (Jun 13, 2015)

I've requested a thread split on this post (something I rarely do).

The topic about long arms of government and offers / terms that meet local nation regulations is a good one we need more discussion on.

All sides bring valid  points and disconnect issues. 

Welcoming the topic to continue and more wide input on meeting nation status regulations afar.


----------



## MannDude (Jun 13, 2015)

Split the thread from the offer thread ( ) since now it's a discussion about their TOS / international law / stuff.


----------



## Dillybob (Jun 13, 2015)

gordonrp said:


> We reserve the right to disclose your info to law enforcement without a warrant when we believe a child is in danger, e.g. kidnapping, live stream of CP, etc.
> 
> We've been in business since 2008, terms are mostly from Incero, if you don't like the ones about not being a ddos magnet or using foul language, then I am glad you read the terms before signing up!
> 
> Thanks for looking,


What is  'live stream of CP' mean?


----------



## drmike (Jun 13, 2015)

Dillybob said:


> What is  'live stream of CP' mean?


 

CP = child porn


----------



## Dillybob (Jun 13, 2015)

drmike said:


> CP = child porn


Hmm Oh.

Wouldn't a government authority just issue a warrant first instead of trying to get the hosts information?       Or do they handle it like DMCA's where they just let the provider know first to shut them down/ or do whatever. But if it's something like that, it seems like a warrant would be issued.


----------



## drmike (Jun 14, 2015)

Dillybob said:


> Hmm Oh.
> 
> Wouldn't a government authority just issue a warrant first instead of trying to get the hosts information?       Or do they handle it like DMCA's where they just let the provider know first to shut them down/ or do whatever. But if it's something like that, it seems like a warrant would be issued.


I guess in theory someone could be on such a stream and then inform the DC of such while forwarding to other authorities (if they aren't such themselves).

CP is something providers rightly fear.


----------



## WSWD (Jun 14, 2015)

DomainBop said:


> Based on a couple of decades of dealing with irrational customers, the customer's recourse would be filing a chargeback with the credit card issuer, and there's a 99% chance the card issuer would side with the cardholder when they found out the merchant refused a refund solely because the customer was angry and used foul language in a ticket.  The card issuer isn't going to give a F that the merchant's TOS said "_I'm sensitive, please don't swear at me"_.


I don't disagree, but you have to remember that credit card companies are not the courts.  It's no different than auto insurance companies siding with their own clients after an accident.  That's why you always litigate.  In fact, you can actually take someone to court, and very likely recover not only the money you are due, but the chargeback fees and court fees, regardless of what the credit card company found.  They are out to protect their clients, and keep them as clients; they are not judges.

The "don't swear at me" type clauses absolutely hold up in court, by the way.  You absolutely have the right, as a business person to terminate relations with an abusive client.  Doesn't even have to be in the TOS.  Incero was simply nice enough to put it in there as an advanced warning to potential assholes. 

This is the thing with TOS/AUP, etc.....they are all basically 100% unneeded.  You can terminate a client any time you want for any reason you want.  You can get rid of them because you didn't like the color shoes they wore in a Facebook pic....at the end of the billing cycle, of course.  What the TOS cover is your financial responsibility as a business, and the limitation thereof.  They normally say that the business does not have to reimburse the client a full/partial refund if they do __________, usually something illegal, i.e. spam, child porn, etc.


----------



## joepie91 (Jun 14, 2015)

MannDude said:


> Split the thread from the offer thread ( ) since now it's a discussion about their TOS / international law / stuff.


Surely there should at least remain a reference in the original thread? Seeing as these unusual terms are 1) quite likely to be relevant to users and 2) most users don't tend to read ToS.



WSWD said:


> The "don't swear at me" type clauses absolutely hold up in court, by the way.  You absolutely have the right, as a business person to terminate relations with an abusive client.  Doesn't even have to be in the TOS.  Incero was simply nice enough to put it in there as an advanced warning to potential assholes.
> 
> This is the thing with TOS/AUP, etc.....they are all basically 100% unneeded.  You can terminate a client any time you want for any reason you want.  You can get rid of them because you didn't like the color shoes they wore in a Facebook pic....at the end of the billing cycle, of course.  What the TOS cover is your financial responsibility as a business, and the limitation thereof.  They normally say that the business does not have to reimburse the client a full/partial refund if they do __________, usually something illegal, i.e. spam, child porn, etc.


In the US. Contracts don't work that way in most other countries.


----------



## WSWD (Jun 14, 2015)

joepie91 said:


> In the US. Contracts don't work that way in most other countries.


Correct.  Like I said, I could care less about other countries.  I'm not under their jurisdiction and don't really give two shits about how they run their countries or courts.  I can't speak for Incero, but if I were them, I wouldn't care about the other countries either.  Their contract is written appropriately for their jurisdiction (US, Texas, and perhaps Dallas), and that should be all that concerns them. 

As I said, if you are not happy with the terms of a US business, then don't do business in the US.  Go do business with some European company.  Nobody here in the US cares to make their terms EU compliant.  We are not in the EU and could care less about their idiotic rules and regulations.


----------



## KwiceroLTD (Jun 14, 2015)

I read that and just thought so the TOS is "we are judge, jury, executioner for all"


----------



## William (Jun 14, 2015)

Nobody should handle any 'serious' abuse without court order. If police wants it down they can also obtain a court order, simple as that.



> Nobody here in the US cares to make their terms EU compliant


Vultr/Choopa/Constant is large and just started to collect VAT from EU customers, so they have to at least implement very basic EU laws as well.


----------



## WSWD (Jun 14, 2015)

William said:


> Vultr/Choopa/Constant is large and just started to collect VAT from EU customers, so they have to at least implement very basic EU laws as well.


That's because they own property (datacenters/servers) in the EU.  That's a completely different story, and yes, they are absolutely bound by certain EU regulation.  An EU company with property in the US, for example, would be subject to the same restrictions, where they would need to abide by the laws of the US, potentially the state, and potentially the local jurisdiction...city or county.

The majority of US companies, however, do not fall into that category, and therefore still do not care about EU regulation.  So why the EU guys come here and bitch about US companies not being in compliance with EU regulation is completely beyond me.  Again, this garbage only comes from Europe.  Have never heard somebody from Asia or Africa or South America or wherever complain.  It's only the Europeans. Why they feel they need to tell everyone in the world how to run their businesses, I haven't a clue.


----------



## blergh (Jun 14, 2015)

WSWD said:


> Again, this garbage only comes from Europe.  Have never heard somebody from Asia or Africa or South America or wherever complain.  It's only the Europeans. Why they feel they need to tell everyone in the world how to run their businesses, I haven't a clue.


----------



## drmike (Jun 14, 2015)

blergh said:


>


Actually guys like Elmer Fudd above don't run the USofA nor dictate much of anything.  That guy is part of the peasantry and a few like him who have collected enough coin may be under some illusion that they are along with the ruling class, but they for the most part aren't and never will be.

Folks that run the show appear to mainly be very old, very wealthy, and very international. They are the suit and tie mafia, they probably go to bed at night in their tacky suits.

See lawyers, for a profession that the USofA should outlaw.  Right up there with prostitutes.  BAR association cult/monopoly, which came from merry olde England.

But yes, the USofA bully state pointer finger is spot on here.


----------

