# IP Address usage



## Virtovo (May 1, 2014)

I've been noticing a recent trend with providers across all different products (Dedicated, VPS etc).  It seems that IPs are now being given away like candy.  I understand there has been a rush for a while to obtain as much IPv4 space as possible; however at what cost?

This has even been evident from typically more respected providers (I am not here to name names) in addition to those that it might be more expected.  What are peoples feelings on this?  It really bothers me when I see things like "Cheap IPv4", "/24 with every server" "severs with 253 IPs from $79/mo".  Surely the stand should be to conserve space and not hoard it out of a greed.

I do understand that there may be an attitude of "If you can't beat them join them" however how likely are ARIN to hold people to account over these practices?  

We've been toying with the ID of an ARIN region company registration to obtain IP space; however we don't have enough utilisation to get an allocation and are unlikely to before exhaustion.  Yet we could sign up with a provider who happily gives /24s away for free get all ranges SWIP, put then to use on cut your throat plans to generate justification.  It's wrong and we won't do it but surely theres something wrong with the system if this is possible.


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## Nett (May 1, 2014)

When the IPs are out, most providers giving /24s out (at a cheap price) will realise it's a bad decision.

But the IPv4 exhaustion will definitely speed up the IPv6 adoption process, so after 5-10 years when every ISP has IPv6, IPv4 won't be that important anymore. The transition from IPv4 to IPv6 will be similar to the transition from DDR2 to DDR3.


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## Virtovo (May 1, 2014)

Nett said:


> When the IPs are out, most providers giving /24s out (at a cheap price) will realise it's a bad decision.
> 
> But the IPv4 exhaustion will definitely speed up the IPv6 adoption process, so after 5-10 years when every ISP has IPv6, IPv4 won't be that important anymore. The transition from IPv4 to IPv6 will be similar to the transition from DDR2 to DDR3.


The providers wont care.  When they stop getting allocations from ARIN they can then start charging their customers for the IPv4.  Unless customers have signed long term contracts they either choose to pay or move elsewhere (where IPs are unlikely to be any cheaper).

IPv4 exhaustion is not an immediate concern.  Even when ARIN run out v4 there will be plenty of v4 address space in the universe.  Space will be leased, sold moved, re-allocated etc, NATd etc.  It will be many years before v4 availability pushes v6 adoption.


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## Nett (May 1, 2014)

So what if you get a /24 now? You can still pay the same price for the subnet 3-5 years later?


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## MartinD (May 1, 2014)

Virtovo said:


> The providers wont care.  When they stop getting allocations from ARIN they can then start charging their customers for the IPv4.  Unless customers have signed long term contracts they either choose to pay or move elsewhere (where IPs are unlikely to be any cheaper).


Not sure I agree. The more savvy provider will have been charging for a while and not throwing them around like candy. When the idiots who're giving them away can't get any more and have to start charging, they'll quickly realise that getting customers in the door with the lure of free ip's was a bad idea as those customers will suddenly realise they have to charge their customers for IP's... making the original server not such a great deal. Prices go up, people dead pool. Upstreams suffer and they too deadpool.

Meanwhile, those who have been charging and operating correctly carry on and make more money.. picking up the pieces.


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## Virtovo (May 1, 2014)

MartinD said:


> Not sure I agree. The more savvy provider will have been charging for a while and not throwing them around like candy. When the idiots who're giving them away can't get any more and have to start charging, they'll quickly realise that getting customers in the door with the lure of free ip's was a bad idea as those customers will suddenly realise they have to charge their customers for IP's... making the original server not such a great deal. Prices go up, people dead pool. Upstreams suffer and they too deadpool.
> 
> Meanwhile, those who have been charging and operating correctly carry on and make more money.. picking up the pieces.


I understand you faced IP issues in 2012 when OVH started charging for IPs that were free before?


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## MartinD (May 1, 2014)

Yep. While we could have taken the hit, it just wasn't the most sensible thing to do. We moved out because it didn't make sense to take such a huge hit financially and OVH went back on their word as they'd previously said existing customers on their pro plans wouldn't be affected.

I guess in a way I have first hand experience on both sides of what can and will happen. It's not nice but we did survive it. The level others are doing it though.. it's a massive timebomb waiting to happen.


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## Francisco (May 1, 2014)

Boss.

They have no choice. At the end of the day, not everyone plays on the same field.

There are more than a few providers out there that are doing everything they can to get space

(not just the obvious one).

While many would love to see V6 "happen", it isn't going to for a good long while (5 - 10 years

before any real movement). These providers that have been so busy to make sure their V4 reserves

are filled will be doing all they can to *stop* the adoption of V6. It will directly eat

at their bottom line if suddenly those IP's mean nothing.

Don't expect V6 to ever take over. If anything, V4 will become a 'business' side, and V6 more

residential, with a beautiful CGNAT to merge things.

There's one business I know of that has moved an /18 in just 2 months doing it on 'Free /24

with every server!'. Does he hate doing that? Probably. Will he keep doing it? Right up

until the last subnet is assigned from ARIN.

Really, if you want to see your business still be around in 5 - 10 years then you better

have a game plan to hold you over. Be it you have your own subnets or easy &

affordable (read: the price is locked for the next 10 years) deals.

I've had the IP address talk with so many providers and I know I sound like Deckard Cain

going on about how the end times are upon us, but it isn't going to be pretty. APNIC has

been dry for years and RIPE is the same. You can still get IP's from RIPE but that's expensive

given the amount of IP's you can get (a single /22). There are *multiple* people on

WHT that have bought that single /22 and are trying to lease it monthly at a buck an IP

just to get some extra income.

Francisco


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## MartinD (May 1, 2014)

I think we've had this conversation before, haven't we? 

It is entirely true. When getting cheap IP's is no longer possible we'll see providers failing all over the place and it wont be at all pretty.


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## Francisco (May 1, 2014)

MartinD said:


> I think we've had this conversation before, haven't we?
> 
> It is entirely true. When getting cheap IP's is no longer possible we'll see providers failing all over the place and it wont be at all pretty.


We have, I just think it's that providers are not trying to hide it anymore.

Before, providers would provision it only if you ticketed them and provided

some heavy justification.

Now, providers are putting it in thread topics, sigs, mass emails, tweets, etc.

From what I gather, they get very loose justification or none at all and just

fill in random things.

When it comes to justification, ARIN is very loose with some people and very

strict on others. They seem to especially hate VPS hosts.

Francisco


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## Virtovo (May 1, 2014)

Francisco said:


> Boss.
> 
> 
> They have no choice. At the end of the day, not everyone plays on the same field.
> ...


I agree with everything you've said.  I think we may even have the same provider in mind who I know is a good guy.  Maybe I am just being overly reflective on this based on our situation and the knowledge that we're unlikely to get our own space before ARIN run dry (if anyone has any ethical ways of getting around this please PM me).  

I just see all these IPs being given away from free.  At some point in the future the IP asset is going to be worth more than the customer utilising it, which will lead to interesting conversations and real implications for people signing up under these deals and their clients.  Looking at some of the recent plans being made available I can see maybe $1-2 profit per customer; however volume is helping the provider keep their head above water.  If they then start getting charged $1per IP with products with multiple IPs they are looking at overnight implosion.


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## SkylarM (May 1, 2014)

Virtovo said:


> I agree with everything you've said.  I think we may even have the same provider in mind who I know is a good guy.  Maybe I am just being overly reflective on this based on our situation and the knowledge that we're unlikely to get our own space before ARIN run dry (if anyone has any ethical ways of getting around this please PM me).


There is discussion in the ARIN groups to drop the base requirements from a /20 for single homed to either a /22 or a single /24. It's being discussed, but may take a back seat to the transfer policy discussion. Might get changed before they run dry, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Agree with everything Fran has to say, not much to really add to it.


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## wlanboy (May 1, 2014)

The problem with IPv6 is that noone knows how to make money with it.

So everyone one is playing the IPv4 is important song.

You should rethink about what "ARIN is out of IPs" mean - the IPs are not dead, just allocated.

If I look at the address space - I do see a lot of companies.

It is funny to see that providers try to get some thousand ips, where others have millions of IPs laying around.

I am sorry for the ones who only rent ip space, because they will have to pay more.

Others will wait until the prices raise and will then sell their unused space.


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## DomainBop (May 1, 2014)

> I understand you faced IP issues in 2012 when OVH started charging for IPs that were free before?



 

2 years later OVH has done a full circle and is now giving out free IPs (€2 setup per IP, no monthly fee) like candy.  It is now possible to order up to 64 x /27 IPs (2048) per server on their regular line and soon up to 16 x /27 IPs (512) on their SYS line (SYS will require a PRO subscription).  They also plan to include up to 5 IPs for free with each Kimsufi server (previously it was 1 IP max for the 2014 KS line) http://forum.ovh.co.uk/showthread.php?7929-Failover-IPs

The downside of this is there has been a surge recently of complete buffoons offering "DDoS protected VPS's" out of OVH  (buffoon defined here as one host actually asked_ "what does RAID 0 do?_")

_.../24 on a 128MB VPS...FTW_


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## Virtovo (May 1, 2014)

DomainBop said:


> 2 years later OVH has done a full circle and is now giving out free IPs (€2 setup per IP, no monthly fee) like candy.  It is now possible to order up to 64 x /27 IPs (2048) per server on their regular line and soon up to 16 x /27 IPs (512) on their SYS line (SYS will require a PRO subscription).  They also plan to include up to 5 IPs for free with each Kimsufi server (previously it was 1 IP max for the 2014 KS line) http://forum.ovh.co.uk/showthread.php?7929-Failover-IPs
> 
> The downside of this is there has been a surge recently of complete buffoons offering "DDoS protected VPS's" out of OVH  (buffoon defined here as one host actually asked_ "what does RAID 0 do?_")
> 
> _.../24 on a 128MB VPS...FTW_



We considered OVH as a location; however a history of inconsistent business practices second only to Hostbill made the decision for us.


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## mhosts (May 1, 2014)

Francisco said:


> When it comes to justification, ARIN is very loose with some people and very
> 
> 
> strict on others. They seem to especially hate VPS hosts.
> ...


Curious as to your viewpoint on this... In our experience ARIN is extremely policy driven. As long as you are meeting said policies, they cannot discriminate on the purpose of use. Be it, VPS, dedicated servers, cable, xDSL connections etc...


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## SkylarM (May 1, 2014)

mhosts said:


> Curious as to your viewpoint on this... In our experience ARIN is extremely policy driven. As long as you are meeting said policies, they cannot discriminate on the purpose of use. Be it, VPS, dedicated servers, cable, xDSL connections etc...


ARIN has been giving the run around to a bunch of VPS providers requesting IP allocations in recent months, making processes take weeks to complete, requesting full client information for all allocations (not just most recent -- not to mention the fact they wanted address, phone numbers, emails instead of just names). I've know of one provider who ARIN requested individual transaction information.

Can also name Dedi providers who put in requests around the same time and went through a standard random justification check on only a handful of swips in their most recent block.


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## datarealm (May 1, 2014)

SkylarM said:


> ARIN has been giving the run around to a bunch of VPS providers requesting IP allocations in recent months, making processes take weeks to complete, requesting full client information for all allocations (not just most recent


Any correlation to the age of the business making the requests?  Just curious.

Personally I think its despicable the way providers are handing IPs now.  The ARIN guidelines state valid technical justification is a requirement to IP reassignment.  Yes its easy to make money by not following the rules, and in this case there are no immediate repercussions.  In the long term its going to screw everyone pretty hard.

(Not to mention I'm pretty sure that I don't someone who just absolutely needs a /24 on a single server without justification coming anywhere close to my network....)


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## SkylarM (May 1, 2014)

datarealm said:


> Any correlation to the age of the business making the requests?  Just curious.


Age doesn't seem to be a factor, moreso the business type. I know of a few that have gone through a similar process that have had ARIN blocks and dealt with them over the course of many years. I thought what you are thinking before I was able to confirm others went through the same process. 6 months or so ago they didn't put VPS providers through that kind of a process. Seems to me they should have had better NRPM verbiage for the purpose of Cloud/VPS based providers, and decided to do too little too late and make it hard on the little guys to get more allocations.

There's always been a bit of a disconnect between justification from a Dedi/Colo provider and a VPS/webhost provider. You can allocate /27's to your heart's content and they 'assume' you have documentation, and will typically spot check at random a handful of blocks to verify you are meeting the requirements for maintaining accurate IP justification forms for clients being allocated blocks larger than /29s (anything larger than a /26 is typically checked more often than smaller blocks). In my experience as a VPS provider (prior to our most recent allocation request), we have had to provide ARIN With First & Last Names with IPs associated for our most recently allocated block, since none of it is actually allocated in blocks typically larger than 2 or 3 IPs. NRPM is pretty spotty on actual justification requirements, so ARIN is sort of at free will to accept or decline provided information, and can theoretically ask for as much or as little information about clients as they wish.

In theory, the NRPM allows them to require more or less information for ANY request, and they could ask for full IP Justification forms for all of your existing allocations as a dedi provider if they wanted to. It's assumed you maintain that anyways, so they typically do not request it. Due to the nature of how they are doing allocation requirements now, it's technically easier to be a VPS provider renting a /21 from your upstream and giving them client name + IP, as they can pass that to ARIN and ARIN will accept it. However, if you have a direct /21 with ARIN they will likely come down harder on you.

The NRPM was never truly modified properly to handle VPS providers, the webhosting policies had been more aimed at Colo/Dedi providers. It's understandable what they are requesting of people as IPv4 depletion nears, however the NRPM should have been updated to reflect as such instead of ARIN randomly requiring more documentation for one request than another.

TLDR: NRPM was never properly updated to handle VPS/Cloud providers. Only gripe is the system is less than ideal and unpredictable with what ARIN may request, and process may be easier based on what "type" of "ISP" you are (see the /10 to Akamai and /12 to Cloudflare). If a standard was set, ARIN and the webhosts would spend a lot less time trying to gather and validate the requested information.


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## earl (May 1, 2014)

So I was somewhat excited about the kimsufi line getting 5 free IP's included, but seems OVH changed their mind again..

what a bunch of jokers!!

https://twitter.com/olesovhcom/status/451106716466552833


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## iWF-Jacob (May 1, 2014)

SkylarM said:


> ARIN has been giving the run around to a bunch of VPS providers requesting IP allocations in recent months, making processes take weeks to complete, requesting full client information for all allocations (not just most recent -- not to mention the fact they wanted address, phone numbers, emails instead of just names). I've know of one provider who ARIN requested individual transaction information.


I believe I posted that a bit ago, but yes. Our last request needed to be accompanied by a beautiful spreadsheet of transaction numbers, which have to line up just right to that individuals' IPs...

For those providers that don't have an NDA on file with ARIN, I highly suggest you get one in sooner rather than later.


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## SkylarM (May 1, 2014)

iWF-Jacob said:


> For those providers that don't have an NDA on file with ARIN, I highly suggest you get one in sooner rather than later.


You mean the NDA that states they aren't responsible for anything that happens with the information you provide?


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## iWF-Jacob (May 1, 2014)

SkylarM said:


> You mean the NDA that states they aren't responsible for anything that happens with the information you provide?


Yes and no, something is better than nothing though. This is the one I am referencing: https://www.arin.net/resources/agreements/nda.pdf


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## SkylarM (May 1, 2014)

iWF-Jacob said:


> Yes and no, something is better than nothing though. This is the one I am referencing: https://www.arin.net/resources/agreements/nda.pdf


Yeah their NDA is pretty wishy washy.


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## drmike (May 1, 2014)

SkylarM said:


> You mean the NDA that states they aren't responsible for anything that happens with the information you provide?


That bullshit NDA at last check offers no disclosure liability of your customer data.

Unsure what ARIN may long be doing with such and don't like that irresponsible approach to things.

Also...

Many markets are springing up for IPv4 sales, leasing, rentals, etc.  Those late to the IP party or who didn't plan accordingly are going to find themselves at the mercy of their upstreams.  Upstreams that I should point out are increasingly targetting the same market as their colo/dedi rental customers - the VPS niche.

So, someone in the VPS world of the future is going to find many providers that are unpalatable since they'll be directly competing and where the IPs cost much more than today.

That will force those small businesses to find other arrangments.  Like those IP swap markets.

For the most part, IPv4 scarcity is a nerd-made problem and doesn't reflect actual IPv4 usage.


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## Francisco (May 2, 2014)

mhosts said:


> Curious as to your viewpoint on this... In our experience ARIN is extremely policy driven. As long as you are meeting said policies, they cannot discriminate on the purpose of use. Be it, VPS, dedicated servers, cable, xDSL connections etc...


Right.

The way ARIN operates is that they don't trust new blood very much but the more space you have, the more

they trust you.

There is a fairly small provider that floats around the LE pricing and such that has probably 100k+ IP's

in their name and just got a /17 the other day, yet the DB leaks for one of their brands shows they were

< 1000 active VM's, total.

It's easy to visit some online 'census data generator' DB and populate your SWIP/justification

forms with it. I know for a fact that one company with 900k IP's was doing exactly that. Said

company has all of < 130 racks globally and yet... 900k IP's? No...

I guess they all luck out that ARIN doesn't make their SWIP database public. I'm pretty sure they have

a datafeed you can request access to. If someone went ahead and looked that over, they would find tons

of fake data.

Minus Alphared, I don't think ARIN is one to revoke space. If all of that space was false but is now

filled? Well... All they'd have to do is now send "proper" justification and things would be kosher.

I say wait to see what hoarders make big moves once this last /8 is dry. I expect movement out of

San Jose and a few other key points.

Francisco


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## Francisco (May 2, 2014)

drmike said:


> That will force those small businesses to find other arrangments.  Like those IP swap markets.
> 
> For the most part, IPv4 scarcity is a nerd-made problem and doesn't reflect actual IPv4 usage.


That's not going to easily happen.

Most VPS hosts aren't going to have that kind of floating capital to pay for it. Going rate

is like $10/IP on /20's and above. There aren't many VPS brands that are going to have $40,960

sitting around to invest in IP's alone.

You probably aren't going to find many banks that are going to give you a loan for something

that is imaginary. You might find some IT leasing groups, but I expect them to want to force

you into a lease on that space, and not a buy out.

As I said in other threads, you aren't going to see the market suddenly grind to a halt once

the last /8 runs out. What *will* happen, though, is companies are going to look into

how they can make whatever IP space they have *last*. While some DC's are getting into

cloud, the margins aren't great on that either when they could be renting out some big gear

on a simple /30, compared to the /25 they may need per 6U of space.

Francisco


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## willie (May 2, 2014)

How do cloud hosts with hourly billing handle the issue of client identification?  For that matter, if I spin up a cloud instance, do some stuff with it, and spin it back down an hour or two later, do they re-use the IP for someone else's newly spun instance right away, or do they let it cool down for a while?


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## Aldryic C'boas (May 2, 2014)

It's likely automated/randomized assignment - they'll have a large enough available pool that even if the IP was reusable immediately, the chances of it being reassigned again that soon are slim-to-none.


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## willie (May 2, 2014)

Thanks... it's still something like a dynamic address though: does the host likely notify ARIN the minute I spin up the instance?  If not, does it likely notify once I've had the instance for a while, like a month?  Do justifications currently have to be updated every so often, or only when applying for new addresses?  Once there are no new addresses available I also wonder what will happen wrt existing addresses.

Fran is that $10/IP figure for non-legacy ARIN IP's?  So Akamai got a $40 MILLION (Dr. Evil voice) dollar asset by filling out some forms?  Wow!  And I think my old school has a legacy /8...


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## mhosts (May 2, 2014)

As of right now, their public policy states the following:



> 4.2.4.1. Utilization percentage (80%)
> ISPs must have efficiently utilized all previous allocations and at least 80% of their most recent allocation in order to receive additional space. This includes all space reassigned to their customers. Please note that until your prior utilization is verified to meet the 80% requirement, ARIN can neither process nor approve a request for additional addresses.


In the event that any ISP requests additional resources, ARIN is required to verify that you meet the 80% use requirement.

If what a lot of people are saying on this forum is true (that the amount of justification in order to be approved for additional resources is different to each provider for the sole reason as being discriminatory to the services they provide) that could have some pretty negative effects.

I know they look at past requests and timelines as part of their process (IE, if you requested an allocation before and predicted it would last x months, and now you're asking for more and it's been less than the original x months, they may ask why). But to go to the extent of asking for all personal information of users including banking transaction numbers... I really don't see the benefit of this other than potential privacy issues.

In fact, challenging the motive behind it would even be justified... They should come clean with their process as to what it takes to "prove" a provider is at 80% utilization. If everything is assigned as a /32 for example, and their check shows that there are no SWIP's, it doesn't necessarily mean that you don't have the utilization you're still following policy as it dictates you only need to SWIP greater than a /29... So it just seems that a lot of assumptions are made, and possibly some differences in service experience depending on the agent answering the ticket, which on a whole, shouldn't be. 

Especially now that they're down to the last /.8, imagine they get accused of giving out the last IP's according to bias and preferential treatment. Whole can of worms there. I guess overall, they're trying to bridge the gap between allocating to ISP's who are looking to try and abuse the last allocations solely for financial gain, which is understandable. Their policies make that pretty difficult to police however in it's current state.


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## SkylarM (May 2, 2014)

Information is assumed to be maintained as arin can technically ask you for justification anytime they want. Most providers will organize their data at the time of request so it's not likely if you spin up a container for a day then cancel that you'd be in their customer data list for a new allocation the following month.


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## sean (May 7, 2014)

We've recently had to increase IP prices for new orders (inevitable) but wouldn't dream of increasing it for existing services as I think most of our client base would get upset and leave! I know I would...


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## zionvps (May 7, 2014)

Most providers are giving away ips for throwaway prices because they showed the need to ARIN and since they have to utilize 80% of the allocated ip or the block might be taken back, which they are afraid of.


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## willie (May 7, 2014)

I'm creeped out by this ARIN database.  It seems like a sure thing that the NSA has got a copy of the database, giving them a mapping between IP's and user names for the whole IPv4 VPS user population among other things.  Of course they could get the info for specific addresses before, but it may well have been more hassle to not have it all in one place.  This lets them track what everyone is doing in real time.

How many hosts with ipv6 capability would be receptive to VPS requests saying "i don't need ipv4 and want to stay out of that database, please just give me an ipv6 and don't use my name for ARIN justification"?


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## Francisco (May 7, 2014)

willie said:


> How do cloud hosts with hourly billing handle the issue of client identification?  For that matter, if I spin up a cloud instance, do some stuff with it, and spin it back down an hour or two later, do they re-use the IP for someone else's newly spun instance right away, or do they let it cool down for a while?


I think a lot of them mark an IP to an account with a cooldown of when it goes back to their reserve pool, that way spammers can't burn up a /20 in a matter of days. Digitalocean had a real spam issue when they originally opened and had to put something like this in place I think.

I'm sure there are many others with the same.

Francisco


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## GelHost (May 8, 2014)

Just to say the IP in US are counted pretty cheap to say the least.


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## matteob (May 8, 2014)

Most provider that do it (except some few big companies) that give ips like candy attract lot abuser and spammer and in few months most ip block will be included in spam lists. This will discourage legitimate customers to buy from them and some companies will be forced to be an "ecatel clone" and others will do out of business. 

Giving huge amount of  IPS is very risky business plan... but i think that most companies are in serious economic difficulties and need to scrape the bottom of the barrel to stay in business,others are probably not skilled competitors and will not remain on the scene for a long time.


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## nunim (May 8, 2014)

I'm not involved at this level of business, but I've always wondered about Legacy allocations, are they able to be leased out or are there rules prohibiting this?

If I was Ford, or HP, IBM, Xerox, etc.. seems like there's a lot of money to be made and it would make IPs a whole lot less scarce when the final /8 is depleted.


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## Aldryic C'boas (May 9, 2014)

ARIN can't actually touch the legacy IP space.  Otherwise they would've reclaimed a LOT of that by now.

The aforementioned companies are already worth billions, and the turnover from leasing IPs isn't really enough to be of interest.  From the IBM/Lenovo perspective - "Would you rather deal with hundreds of high-value contracts, or have to try and manage hundreds of thousands of small ones?"


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## WSWD (May 9, 2014)

Aldryic C said:


> "Would you rather deal with hundreds of high-value contracts, or have to try and manage hundreds of thousands of small ones?"


Well that would be stupid for sure.  But how about hiring a company to take care of it for you?  Then you deal with one high-value contract and let somebody else deal with the technical aspect/sales/etc.  That's what I would do if I were any of those companies.

They don't have to deal with the public on their own, as far as the IPs are concerned.


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## raindog308 (May 9, 2014)

Nett said:


> The transition from IPv4 to IPv6 will be similar to the transition from DDR2 to DDR3.


I really don't see the parallel.


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