# Greece - what's next?



## MartinD (Jul 3, 2015)

As some of you may or may not know, Greece is currently suffering from quite a serious financial crisis. In basic terms, they were spending far more money than they had so when the global financial crash happened some years ago, they ignored it and carried on spending. As a result, they ended up with a massive deficit and had to borrow a shed load of money from the rest of the EU and IMF. At the moment, they're in debt to the tune of €160bn+.

More recently, they've been trying to work out a plan to keep the country going with a few more loans and handouts but the recently elected government had an anti-austerity plan meaning they wouldn't cut public spending. This means they've been unable to repay a portion of the debt that was due 2 days ago (around €1.5bn). The IMF and EU have decided, at the moment, not to lend any further money which resulted in many of the Greek banks running dry and limiting customers to €60 per day in withdrawals.

What's that got to do with hosting? Well, we're now in a position where customers in Greece can't pay their bills to the hosting companies they use. I've had a number of customers recently asking for their due dates to be extended as they can't pay. Not necessarily because they have no money but because their bank AND PayPal refuse the transaction and wont let money out of the country - this is largely due to the Capital Controls now in force in Greece;



> "As you may be aware, capital controls have been imposed in Greek banks since 29th of June. Due to these controls no payments can be made to foreign country accounts from credit/debit cards that have been issued in Greece (same capital controls apply to transferring funds to Paypal accounts)." (direct quote from a customer).



Paypal have also issued comment:



> "Due to the recent decisions of the Greek authorities on capital controls, funding of PayPal wallet from Greek bank accounts, as well as cross-border transactions, funded by any cards or bank accounts are currently not available. We aim to continue serving our valued customers in Greece in full, as we have for over a decade."



We're now in a position whereby a large number of Greek customers cannot pay for their hosting by traditional means. Country issued credit and debit cards cannot be used for transactions and anything via PayPal is blocked; they're essentially locked out or locked 'in' depending on how you look at it. I know of one large hosting company director who has been speaking with a few others about arranging to fly over to Greece and take manual payments from customers.

The question is; for how long does the rest of the hosting world try and help the Greek people with their accounts? Obviously it cannot continue indefinitely but at the same time, we don't want to be cutting them off when they're already at a very low point.

We may have to wait and see the outcome of the referendum this weekend but it's looks as though there's a swing to Greece pulling out of the EU entirely (or rather, being ejected). If that happens, where does that leave the people of Greece..and, more importantly on this forum, where does it leave the providers who are out of pocket?


----------



## rds100 (Jul 3, 2015)

I am planning of adding a month worth of free credit to out Greek customers if their next payment fails. I hope they will be OK after a month.


----------



## wlanboy (Jul 3, 2015)

This is a real pain for them. I read that they are only allowed to withdraw 60€ per day on a cash machine too.

Looks like it will end like the Cypriot financial crisis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012%E2%80%9313_Cypriot_financial_crisis


----------



## trueman1 (Jul 3, 2015)

i think it will be a world collapse,

next country victims will be Spain.


----------



## MartinD (Jul 3, 2015)

trueman1 said:


> i think it will be a world collapse,
> 
> next country victims will be Spain.


Well, no, I don't think the world is threatened by any means but the rest of the EU certainly have an issue on their doorstep.

Spain's economy was never really that great through all of this but I don't see Greece as being a problem. Spain are at least able to keep their heads above the water and have been doing so for a while now.



rds100 said:


> I am planning of adding a month worth of free credit to out Greek customers if their next payment fails. I hope they will be OK after a month.


We've done the same. All customers from Greece have been given an extension to ensure they stay up and running without problems. Basically pay when you can, preferably sooner rather than later but we'll help where we can.


----------



## Licensecart (Jul 3, 2015)

We've tweeted from when we heard that we will support our customers in greece if they contact us as-well. It's hard that the government allowed it and now their people have to suffer. The government should sue the banks.


----------



## MartinD (Jul 3, 2015)

Licensecart said:


> We've tweeted from when we heard that we will support our customers in greece if they contact us as-well. It's hard that the government allowed it and now their people have to suffer. The government should sue the banks.


You're getting confused. For all intents, the government and the banks are the same thing and it was the previous government that created the problem. 

The government needs to make some serious cuts, the banks need to tighten their purse strings and the IMF need to relax a little.


----------



## Licensecart (Jul 3, 2015)

MartinD said:


> You're getting confused. For all intents, the government and the banks are the same thing and it was the previous government that created the problem.
> 
> 
> The government needs to make some serious cuts, the banks need to tighten their purse strings and the IMF need to relax a little.


Ah I thought they was like us, most banks in the UK are privately ran minus the Lloyds TSB which the tax payers own like 5% or something.


----------



## AnthonySmith (Jul 3, 2015)

Had 4 customers contact me who are having trouble, I just looked up customers in Greece and to be honest some of them paid very recently so I dont know if they are savy enough to get around the paypal blocks or something.

Anyway I am just going to offer a blanket free 3 months to everyone in Greece (Current customers only) because to be honest if the issue is not resolved by then I suspect a VPS will be of no concern to them as chaos will have descended long before then.

But it certainly will be interesting seeing how it turns out.


----------



## rds100 (Jul 3, 2015)

AnthonySmith said:


> I just looked up customers in Greece and to be honest some of them paid very recently so I dont know if they are savy enough to get around the paypal blocks or something.


If they have balance in their paypal account - they can use it to pay. But card transactions with cards from Greek banks don't work.


----------



## Tyler (Jul 3, 2015)

AnthonySmith said:


> Anyway I am just going to offer a blanket free 3 months to everyone in Greece (Current customers only) because to be honest if the issue is not resolved by then I suspect a VPS will be of no concern to them as chaos will have descended long before then.


Just wanted to pop in to say, kudos to you! Not a whole lot of providers (especially LowEnd ones) would be so kind and understanding about the situation over there.


----------



## drmike (Jul 3, 2015)

People in Greece should have grabbed and started using Bitcoin a while ago (tech folks at least).  Far from perfect, but not getting slayed like their currency is and hasn't been regulated into unavailability yet.

It's time to defund the global lending cabal and their quiet banking / monetary wars against humanity.

Shops out there should work with Greek customers during this time.  Rise above the profits, help the customers into crypto currencies and other alternatives.  This is bad for the Greek people, but good for monetary change. Be that change you wish in the world.


----------



## DomainBop (Jul 3, 2015)

drmike said:


> People in Greece should have grabbed and started using Bitcoin a while ago (tech folks at least).  Far from perfect, but not getting slayed like their currency is and hasn't been regulated into unavailability yet.


Bitcoin would allow a few Greek geeks to pay their VPS bills but Greece has the 3rd lowest Internet penetration rate in the EU (59.9% based on 2013 stats) so switching to crypto currencies isn't really a viable solution for the average person  transacting business or trying to pay their electric/rent bills, buy food, inside the country. 



> Greece 6,451,326 Internet users on Dec 31, 2013, 59.9% penetration, per ITU


----------



## William (Jul 3, 2015)

I predict (JEW CERTIFIED):

1.: GREXIT - Greece will stay EU but switch to Drachma

2.: Greece will cut their debts another time by 50%

3.: IMF will cut debt in half as well


----------



## drmike (Jul 3, 2015)

DomainBop said:


> Bitcoin would allow a few Greek geeks to pay their VPS bills but Greece has the 3rd lowest Internet penetration rate in the EU (59.9% based on 2013 stats) so switching to crypto currencies isn't really a viable solution for the average person  transacting business or trying to pay their electric/rent bills, buy food, inside the country.


No doubt.  Coins are but one diversification and oh shit shielding step all people everywhere should be taking.  Other steps they could have taken are holding precious metals (silver being the everyday person holding), barter goods, self reserves, etc.

Unsure how the situation is within Greece, but I take it as usual such limits and regulations are impacting the urban population harsher?

Seems that Greece is sitting on a powder keg.  If the debts are external (like always seem to be) they should be leaving such debt behind ala Iceland style.  Whole concept of debt as a government aside from legit cash spend hole (war funding, massive natural disaster, etc.) is illogical.  Citizens everywhere should take the deferred payment debt book away from government.  It is a tool that yields little good and much sorrow.  See municipal bonds in the United States and the inevitable domino drop still waiting to happen.


----------



## souen (Jul 3, 2015)

drmike said:


> Unsure how the situation is within Greece, but I take it as usual such limits and regulations are impacting the urban population harsher?


Some comments from a LET member in Greece:

http://lowendtalk.com/discussion/comment/1145268/#Comment_1145268

http://lowendtalk.com/discussion/comment/1146132/#Comment_1146132



> Things are very difficult here. There is an artificial almost bankraupt of the banks (major propaganda from foreign and local networks that lead millions of people to try to lift all deposits from their bank accounts within a week. This situation crashed all liquidity from Greek banks and the European Central Bank refused to use the ELA - Emergency Liquid Assistance- to give liquidity).
> 
> 
> There is a referendum on Sunday, with the question if the Greek people will accept the proposals of the troika. This proposal contains, among others, VAT rise to almost all of products and services that today are on 6,5 and 13% (insurances, medicine, tourism services, public services etc. and all food) to 23% (today all of other products in Greece are on 23% VAT).
> ...


An interesting documentary on the Greece situation: http://greeceonthebrink.com/

Granted, I'm not sure the Marxist stuff at the end is _the_ solution, but if the numbers are correct, the situation has gotten ridiculous and no wonder people are protesting.

Nice gesture on the part of providers offering to extend the payment date for Greek residents during a tough period. Goes towards customer loyalty, knowing a provider is flexible/open to negotiation.


----------



## Licensecart (Jul 3, 2015)

Donated €12 to this, if we can all donate €3 (€4 with postage) hopefully if a lot of us in the hosting industry and around the world we may be able to help the people of Greece as-well as our customers: https://www.indiegogo.com/greek-bailout-fund.htmlits a long shot but if we try maybe we can make a difference.


----------



## Nick_A (Jul 3, 2015)

Not many clients impacted by this so far in terms of their hosting bills with us, but we're flexible for those who contact us.


----------



## Francisco (Jul 3, 2015)

William said:


> I predict (JEW CERTIFIED):
> 
> 1.: GREXIT - Greece will stay EU but switch to Drachma
> 
> ...


They and the other 'PIGS' need their old currency to stand a chance of getting back into shape. The big selling point for Portugal for instance was travel but now that it's EURO all over, it isn't a great option.

Greece is going to just have to suck it up and deal with it. I think they'll go to their old currency as well but expect inflation to get pretty nasty (I expect 1/2 - 1/4 what the EURO values at). People are expecting the same given the lineups around the block to get money out of the ATM machines.

Francisco


----------



## HBAndrei (Jul 4, 2015)

Licensecart said:


> Donated €12 to this, if we can all donate €3 (€4 with postage) hopefully if a lot of us in the hosting industry and around the world we may be able to help the people of Greece as-well as our customers: https://www.indiegogo.com/greek-bailout-fund.htmlits a long shot but if we try maybe we can make a difference.


Thanks Mike for that link, I've donated 6euros, I know it's not much but if everyone would do it then that'd be it.


----------



## KuJoe (Jul 4, 2015)

HBAndrei said:


> Thanks Mike for that link, I've donated 6euros, I know it's not much but if everyone would do it then that'd be it.


What would be it? You do know that the 1.6 billion EUR they are asking for is less than 1% of what Greece owes right? That's an insane amount.


----------



## HBAndrei (Jul 4, 2015)

KuJoe said:


> What would be it? You do know that the 1.6 billion EUR they are asking for is less than 1% of what Greece owes right? That's an insane amount.


I know, but the $1.6bn would be one step closer to paying that debt... it wouldn't mean we "saved Greece", it would just mean we helped them as much as we could.


----------



## MartinD (Jul 4, 2015)

I'd rather pay money in to a fund that was used to help citizens in Greece directly with food, water and general living costs.


----------



## Licensecart (Jul 4, 2015)

HBAndrei said:


> Thanks Mike for that link, I've donated 6euros, I know it's not much but if everyone would do it then that'd be it.


Yeah mate hopefully we can and if they can extend the offer with indiegogo that will help us, as it's only getting known now, but as Tesco says "Every little helps"


----------



## MartinD (Jul 4, 2015)

Need a fund whereby upon fulfilment, someone goes over there with the cash (actual cash) and hands it out to those who need it most.


----------



## blergh (Jul 4, 2015)

MartinD said:


> Need a fund whereby upon fulfilment, someone goes over there with the cash (actual cash) and hands it out to those who need it most.


"They need to pay them damn taxes!"


----------



## Licensecart (Jul 4, 2015)

KuJoe said:


> What would be it? You do know that the 1.6 billion EUR they are asking for is less than 1% of what Greece owes right? That's an insane amount.


It's not going to the people they owe, it's goes to the Greece people they choose what to do with it.


----------



## William (Jul 4, 2015)

1.6BN EUR only pays ONE installment to the IMF and EU - Total of Greece's debt is somewhere around 200BN EUR.

This won't help them anyway, next installment would have the same repay issue.


----------



## Francisco (Jul 5, 2015)

For those wondering what happened in Greece:



Francisco


----------



## Licensecart (Jul 5, 2015)

William said:


> 1.6BN EUR only pays ONE installment to the IMF and EU - Total of Greece's debt is somewhere around 200BN EUR.
> 
> This won't help them anyway, next installment would have the same repay issue.


Again this kick-starter isn't for their debt it's for the people of Greece, they choose what it goes for, whether it's food, wages, whatever if they want to pay off part of their debt that's fine but it's *for the People* which is why I gave a bit to the fund.


----------



## William (Jul 5, 2015)

And you think, even if it is successful, some random UK guy will get 1.6bn EUR into Greece? Highly unlikely to entirely impossible without paying 40% exercise tax...


----------



## mitgib (Jul 5, 2015)

William said:


> And you think, even if it is successful, some random UK guy will get 1.6bn EUR into Greece? Highly unlikely to entirely impossible without paying 40% exercise tax...


Bitcoin


----------



## Licensecart (Jul 5, 2015)

William said:


> And you think, even if it is successful, some random UK guy will get 1.6bn EUR into Greece? Highly unlikely to entirely impossible without paying 40% exercise tax...


I don't think someone would lie in a indiegogo, they hold the cash at the moment and since it's gone global I think he would end up in big shit and more if he lies. How does it go, I don't know but that's not a high priority at the moment.


----------



## GIANT_CRAB (Jul 5, 2015)

OXI wins


----------



## HN-Matt (Jul 6, 2015)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: THE GLOBAL NEED FOR 'REPARATIONS' EXISTS EVERYWHERE AT ONCE AND WILL LIKELY NEVER CATCH UP WITH THE DAMAGES MADE BY CAPITALIST ECONOMY...


----------



## rds100 (Aug 18, 2015)

Is there any update on this, can Greek people use paypal again (and fund it with their cards)?


----------

