Crowdfunding - Custom WHMCS Implementation

[shovenose]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/marin-internet-services/x/6253760

So, besides the obvious intent of my crowdfunding campaign not having anything to do with VPS hosting, the most relevant portion to the people here (and pretty much the only reason to post this on a forum full of hosting providers)? WHMCS.

Yes, we will be using WHMCS, at least at the beginning. With lots of custom development and modification.

As we work on it, I'm going to share the progress of our custom WHMCS implementation. Hopefully, by the end, it won't be recognizable as WHMCS. 

Once we've made more progress I'll post a photo gallery on IndieGoGo but I'm not going to post one picture at a time since that will annoy people methinks.

Without further ado, here's the login form.

 

[HalfEatenPie]

I find so many things wrong with this.  

It shows you only have two people on your team.  A web designer and you.  Why do you need a web designer on the team?  What does he bring to the table that you can't just use part of the funding to simply pay a web designer to take care of it?  What's his background?

What you're talking about is creating an infrastructure... with 40k.  That might be ok for short-term but if you want to invest in an ISP then you want them to actually be able to continue paying their bills.  I don't see this happening long-term with only 40K to start off with (even a single 1Gbit dedicated pipe will take a good portion of money, you said you want multiple of this). 

Have you done any actual trials with your concept?  Have you actually collected test data to see how reliable your system/method is?  All I see is a concept without actual data to back it up.  Yes the design specs may say it's good within ___ range but have you actually tested it out?  How would weather affect your services? One of the reliability portion of actual physical (non wireless) system is that you don't have to worry too much about rain and snow affecting the system. I need data not words.  

What makes your ISP unique?  What's peventing, lets say comcast (who obviously have much deeper pockets) from being able to do this?  What's the yearly operational costs?  What permits do you need? (If I recall from my Radio Station days, you might need to get the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) involved because you'll be transmitting wireless signal in a broad area.  12 years ago when we got quotes to purchase an FM frequency, the cheapest number was $800k, and that was the CHEAPEST one.  And that was just getting the license.  Think about equipment costs, maintenance costs, etc.).  

Show me you've actually done your research instead of saying "look at this cool thing Ubiquiti made that I want to implement here like this!"  Show me what you've already invested and what information you've already gathered.  

Also... Don't post something like this (seriously man):

-This campaign is being set up as a "flexible funding" campaign. This means that even if the goal of $40,000 is not achieved, I will be able to keep the money. Why? Because even if the goal isn't reached completely, it's still possible to do some work towards Marin Internet Services. I mean, maybe we get a cheaper truck or we get a smaller office.

That's a pretty long way of saying "we want what we can get".  Also " I mean, maybe we get a cheaper truck or we get a smaller office."  Really?  What prevented you from doing this to begin with?

I think you need more people with background in this on your team.  You need more thought into it.  You need actual proof of concept before asking for funding from us.  I'm not trying to knock you down, but I think you seriously need to re-evaluate this project.  

 

[HalfEatenPie]

Follow up thought.

You're basically asking people for your initial start-up costs.  The only actual service-giving tier is the $5k, and that's for 5 years.  That's $1k per year, which comes down to basically paying $83.33 per month.  

When I was in the States I was paying Comcast $40 per month for just the internet alone and I didn't have to pay a large setup cost (it was like what... another 20/40 dollars or so?).  You're talking about being the cheap alternative (and being another competing ISP in the area) but have you actually done your feasibility study?  Obviously the network speed depends on what you provide to each client but what you're asking for is practically double what Comcast is asking for, and at $80.00/month you can also get TV included for Comcast. 

Also, I don't live in Fairfax, California, but it shows additional companies available in the local region for internet service.  Now I'll admit I don't know how true/updated this list is, and obviously there can be places where their service areas are not within range, but I think there's enough alternative there to work with.

One of the best internet service providers I've had the pleasure of working with was a local ISP that only peered with Level 3.  I loved that service, much more/better than working with Comcast of Windstream.  

Basically, what makes you unique?  

 

[MannDude]

I think the HalfEatenPie above me has covered most things.

 

[shovenose]

That list of additional companies from Yelp? Yeah, most of those companies should just have tumbleweeds blowing across the desolation of their customer base. As in, they have very few customers, and they don't really DO anything. Either the service is not that great, or the rates are horrible. There are companies like Monkey brains that too a good job but they're not really popular because they don't take themselves seriously, and they only serve a very tiny area. It is understandable more difficult to use PtMP wireless in San Francisco but still.

Signing up for a DSL connection from AT&T here in Fairfax, CA... 

$20/month for 1.5Mbps, with a 2 Year contract. Oh, and it's down about half the time. Yes, I used to have that here. Now I have Comcast 50Mbps for almost $90. Much better quality service, but they're still horrible to deal with when something is wrong. on AT&T, they do charge about $100 for a DSL WiFi modem. Plus whatever their line activation fees are. Oh, and make sure you have at least basic landline phone service because dry loop DSL? Even more expensive! on Comcast, you have to pay $8/month for a cable WiFI modem that has nothing but problems. I went through three of them until I said f*** it and bought my own modem and router and stopped paying them for their horrible one. I got my modem for $15 at work because I work at an e-waste recycling place. And a friend gave me the Wireless AC router I use. Retail price a DOCSIS 3.0 Cable WiFi modem? over $100.

So my service having a $150 setup fee is more than reasonable. We'll terminate with Ethernet. No proprietary modem required or extra equipment to buy. Options? A. just plug your desktop/laptop in with an Ethernet cable B. buy a Wireless N router for $25 new on Amazon that's better than anything provided by any major ISPs (DIR-601 is a great, inexpensive router plenty good enough for most homes or even small businesses)...

We have an ISP like that, like the one you are describing. They don't serve here, but a bit further west. Their service is slower than Comcast, and while they use mostly Level3 bandwidth, they have ridiculous data caps. 

We will be selling our service starting at $20/month to the general public. You won't find that anywhere else here. Unless you want to go with the abovementioned AT&T DSL. A bit up north more (15 mins on the highway) and you get to Novato. Most of Novato is served by Verizon DSL. Hahaha. Look that up! It's a joke. 1.1Mbps download and 384K upload for $35/month. Again, you'll need a landline with that too.

We're also going to have a limited available $10/mo plan for disabled, seniors, students, and low income individuals. While unfortunately these users will probably account for a majority of our tech support calls, these users typically use small amounts of bandwidth.

Small local businesses are going be easy to get on our service. Why? Because, for example the company I work at currently, is a comptuer repair and reburbishment shop. We have 6Mbps AT&T DSL. If one computer runs Windows Update or we're downloading a Driver, well, good luck doing anything! Oh, a customer wants to test Netflix on a computer before they buy it? Good luck with that!

I have done real world tests with most of the equipment we'll be using. Including in a lightning storm. Yeah, standing up top a bucket truck holding an antenna in the air? Probably not world's brightest idea but hey, I'm still here.

I did flexible funding because I don't want to be in a situation where I end up with $33K but the campaign doesn't make it. That would suck. Because with $33K we forgo the office and everybody works from home. Ideal? Nope. But let me change the way that is worded because I did not work that well. Another benefit of a flexible funding campaign is that I get the money right away as it's contributed. So we can start working.

The Web Developer is my friend - we're working on the custom interface as well as custom back end development for WHMCS. People contributing $5,000+ won't just do it to get internet - but because they care about the concept and they want a local company to provide their internet service. You don't live here, but Marin County is a very unusual place in that almost everybody likes to "shop local" even if it's actually detrimental to their wallets and the environment. the Good Earth, the only big grocery store in Fairfax, has an almost cult like following. People drive from all over in their big ass SUVs just to shop there. But I digress...

The equipment we will be using is specifically designed for this purpose. Other companies in other places have succeeded. I am confident that Ubiquiti's products will meet my obsessive standard for stability, reliability, security, and performance. And again we have done real world testing and got positive results, even in less than ideal conditions...

So yeah, it's not like I haven't thought this all through. 

PS: Bandwidth will not be a problem. I should be able to get a gig for about $1/Mbit. Or a 100Mbps commit on a gig pipe with 95 %ile billing for ~$300-400. I can always add more of those as I go.

 

[drmike]

$40k isn't shit.  Won't cover much gear, certainly won't cover many tower locations.   Looked at the price of tower space?  Build out costs at such locations?  Bandwidth at such locations?  It's rather expensive.  Lots of bureaucratic red tape, engineering documents, permits, etc. for such an implementation.

Aren't there pre-existing wifi implementations out there?  What happened to them?

I am all for local ISPs.  Would be cool to see you build something even if small scale.

Should network with local non profit, the local foundations, etc. and stores of local/regional money.   Someone or a few people total could get you proper mentors and write a check just because.

 

[drmike]

Try contacting these folks:

https://www.marincf.org/grants-and-loans

 

[shovenose]

$40k isn't shit.  Won't cover much gear, certainly won't cover many tower locations.   Looked at the price of tower space?  Build out costs at such locations?  Bandwidth at such locations?  It's rather expensive.  Lots of bureaucratic red tape, engineering documents, permits, etc. for such an implementation.

Aren't there pre-existing wifi implementations out there?  What happened to them?

I am all for local ISPs.  Would be cool to see you build something even if small scale.

Should network with local non profit, the local foundations, etc. and stores of local/regional money.   Someone or a few people total could get you proper mentors and write a check just because.

Hi,

Thanks for your input!

You're right. $40K isn't much. But it's a start. And you'd be surprised what I will be able to do with $40K. Make that $37,200 after fees. I won't be able to serve the entirety of Marin County but I'll be able to set up my company, set up a small core network, and get some people and small businesses online. Steady income from that and playing my cards well, it's something to grow upon. I'm not expecting to be able to provide instant access for all 258,365 people in Marin County (according to 2013 census) but all in due time. Keep in mind that since I'm using PtMP Wireless I don't have to lay fiber/copper to every single building I'm planning to serve. 

Not intending for this to be a non profit, that's the thing - non profits are a pain in the @$$. Very much for profit - but earned honestly by providing a great service and being a good company, not because of corporate greed. Comcast, AT&T, Verizon, Cox, Time Warning, whoever else, make boatloads of money. But their service can be inconsistent depending on where you are, their promos and rates and bills are confusing as all hell, and their support and customer service is horrible. People pay these companies because they need to, not because they want to.

 

[drmike]

No reason to a "non-profit".   Those entities I recommend, dole out money for local/regional projects.  May or may not be some investment available there.

I saw the PTMP... Has it's limits / overhead.  Going to need tower locations for a few and they suck, believe me, I may know a bit too much there.

Lined up you backhaul fiber provider already?

 

[shovenose]

No reason to a "non-profit".   Those entities I recommend, dole out money for local/regional projects.  May or may not be some investment available there.


I saw the PTMP... Has it's limits / overhead.  Going to need tower locations for a few and they suck, believe me, I may know a bit too much there.


Lined up you backhaul fiber provider already?

I absolutely promise I am not trying to argue with you or pick a fight, but:

"The Marin Community Foundation offers a variety of assistance for nonprofits through grants and loans. We're here to support the organizations that make our community a better place to live."

And yes, we'll need at least one tower location to start with, however I can do a lot just from any office in San Rafael where I'm either 3-4+ floors up, or can get roof rights, or both.

Unfortunately both the NanoStation M2 and NanoStation M2 Loco have 100Mbps Ethernet ports so even though they can link up at 300Mbps they won't do this in a real world scenario (yeah, I've tried) the max that can be reasonable pushed through one is 80-90Mbps tops. Will somebody on Comcast's 50Mbps plan like myself notice much of a difference? probably not. But it's worth it to be getting service from a local company. Is there a reason to switch if you watch TV all day like news, ESPN, whatever else, have good, fast internet, and also have phone service from Comcast, like their Xfinity Triple Play? Not really. That's not my target customer. But if you don't need TV (latency on my network will be sufficient for VoIP, plenty of companies provide that for cheap... Vitelity, RingCentral, Phone Power, Vonage...) and you either hate your ISP or can't get speeds faster than dial up or DSL there is no reason NOT to switch.

 

[drmike]

I absolutely promise I am not trying to argue with you or pick a fight, but:


"The Marin Community Foundation offers a variety of assistance for nonprofits through grants and loans. We're here to support the organizations that make our community a better place to live."

No problem  Contact them anyways.   Odds are they are gateway to others in the county.  Usually it works this way.

Networking goes a very long way with such things.  

Might meet or get referred to a tower owner that magically waves your fees.  

 

[HalfEatenPie]

 

$40k isn't shit.  Won't cover much gear, certainly won't cover many tower locations.   Looked at the price of tower space?  Build out costs at such locations?  Bandwidth at such locations?  It's rather expensive.  Lots of bureaucratic red tape, engineering documents, permits, etc. for such an implementation.

Aren't there pre-existing wifi implementations out there?  What happened to them?

I am all for local ISPs.  Would be cool to see you build something even if small scale.

Should network with local non profit, the local foundations, etc. and stores of local/regional money.   Someone or a few people total could get you proper mentors and write a check just because.

Try contacting these folks:

https://www.marincf.org/grants-and-loans

Big this.  It doesn't matter if you're non-profit or for-profit.  Certain grants have different qualifications and some of them aren't focused on non-profits.  The radio station we built was funded 100% through grants from non-profit organization (we had our own office for years and our own hardware, etc.  Never got past the FM because of the major initial investment, but everything else was kosher.  Big thumbs up to grants).  

I wasn't saying 40k was small money, I was stating that I feel like 40k isn't enough to cover the infrastructure let alone the hardware.  In addition, in the video he stated he wants to pay people a livable wage.  I don't know the cost of living there but I'm sure you want to at least be able to support yourself and whoever's working full-time.  If you don't then... well...  you can't sustain yourself? 

That list of additional companies from Yelp? Yeah, most of those companies should just have tumbleweeds blowing across the desolation of their customer base. As in, they have very few customers, and they don't really DO anything. Either the service is not that great, or the rates are horrible. There are companies like Monkey brains that too a good job but they're not really popular because they don't take themselves seriously, and they only serve a very tiny area. It is understandable more difficult to use PtMP wireless in San Francisco but still.

Signing up for a DSL connection from AT&T here in Fairfax, CA... 

$20/month for 1.5Mbps, with a 2 Year contract. Oh, and it's down about half the time. Yes, I used to have that here. Now I have Comcast 50Mbps for almost $90. Much better quality service, but they're still horrible to deal with when something is wrong. on AT&T, they do charge about $100 for a DSL WiFi modem. Plus whatever their line activation fees are. Oh, and make sure you have at least basic landline phone service because dry loop DSL? Even more expensive! on Comcast, you have to pay $8/month for a cable WiFI modem that has nothing but problems. I went through three of them until I said f*** it and bought my own modem and router and stopped paying them for their horrible one. I got my modem for $15 at work because I work at an e-waste recycling place. And a friend gave me the Wireless AC router I use. Retail price a DOCSIS 3.0 Cable WiFi modem? over $100.

So my service having a $150 setup fee is more than reasonable. We'll terminate with Ethernet. No proprietary modem required or extra equipment to buy. Options? A. just plug your desktop/laptop in with an Ethernet cable B. buy a Wireless N router for $25 new on Amazon that's better than anything provided by any major ISPs (DIR-601 is a great, inexpensive router plenty good enough for most homes or even small businesses)...

We have an ISP like that, like the one you are describing. They don't serve here, but a bit further west. Their service is slower than Comcast, and while they use mostly Level3 bandwidth, they have ridiculous data caps. 

We will be selling our service starting at $20/month to the general public. You won't find that anywhere else here. Unless you want to go with the abovementioned AT&T DSL. A bit up north more (15 mins on the highway) and you get to Novato. Most of Novato is served by Verizon DSL. Hahaha. Look that up! It's a joke. 1.1Mbps download and 384K upload for $35/month. Again, you'll need a landline with that too.

We're also going to have a limited available $10/mo plan for disabled, seniors, students, and low income individuals. While unfortunately these users will probably account for a majority of our tech support calls, these users typically use small amounts of bandwidth.

Small local businesses are going be easy to get on our service. Why? Because, for example the company I work at currently, is a comptuer repair and reburbishment shop. We have 6Mbps AT&T DSL. If one computer runs Windows Update or we're downloading a Driver, well, good luck doing anything! Oh, a customer wants to test Netflix on a computer before they buy it? Good luck with that!

I have done real world tests with most of the equipment we'll be using. Including in a lightning storm. Yeah, standing up top a bucket truck holding an antenna in the air? Probably not world's brightest idea but hey, I'm still here.

I did flexible funding because I don't want to be in a situation where I end up with $33K but the campaign doesn't make it. That would suck. Because with $33K we forgo the office and everybody works from home. Ideal? Nope. But let me change the way that is worded because I did not work that well. Another benefit of a flexible funding campaign is that I get the money right away as it's contributed. So we can start working.

The Web Developer is my friend - we're working on the custom interface as well as custom back end development for WHMCS. People contributing $5,000+ won't just do it to get internet - but because they care about the concept and they want a local company to provide their internet service. You don't live here, but Marin County is a very unusual place in that almost everybody likes to "shop local" even if it's actually detrimental to their wallets and the environment. the Good Earth, the only big grocery store in Fairfax, has an almost cult like following. People drive from all over in their big ass SUVs just to shop there. But I digress...

The equipment we will be using is specifically designed for this purpose. Other companies in other places have succeeded. I am confident that Ubiquiti's products will meet my obsessive standard for stability, reliability, security, and performance. And again we have done real world testing and got positive results, even in less than ideal conditions...

So yeah, it's not like I haven't thought this all through. 

PS: Bandwidth will not be a problem. I should be able to get a gig for about $1/Mbit. Or a 100Mbps commit on a gig pipe with 95 %ile billing for ~$300-400. I can always add more of those as I go.

Back to the $5k tier.  If your plans are going to be that then didn't you just shaft your highest-initial funding customer?  I mean they're paying 83.33/month for internet speed that you haven't specified.  

Also, what are the limitation to the hardware?  What's the maximum number of clients it can sustain at any given time without having any issues/effects to the quality?  

I don't want you to stand outside with an antenna.  I want you to go out there and collect actual quantifiable data.  Create scenarios where you figure out how much packetloss will happen with a specific number of devices are connecting to and from the system at a distributed distance with ideal and not-so-ideal weather conditions.  Or if he already has, then to share that information.  Right now I don't see any numbers and any actual "proof" of how this will even work.  Yes I know and understand the theory behind it, but I haven't seen any small-scale testing being done or being communicated to me as to prove it's actually possible.  

Also, I grew up in a small college town in the Mid-west that has a huge local atmosphere (Colorado's almost as bad as California in that aspect), so I know what you're talking about and can relate to it.  It's awesome and all but I wouldn't rely on it as a sole method of getting business.  

Also, I understand your web designer friend is part of the project and all but my understanding was this project is focused on the infrastructure.  I find it a bit unsettling that you have a PR individual (the web designer) on the team but lacks an infrastructure guy (in addition to yourself if you consider yourself one that is).  

Also again, did you review regulations and settings by the FCC?  What frequency are you planning on utilizing?  FCC also limits the transmitter power.  

Getting access to a tower (at least when we were looking into the rates) is also ridiculously expensive.  This was back when I was 16 that we were getting these quotes so adjust for 2014, I think it'll be a bit more expensive.

You stated this has already been done in other locations, can you give us a case study we can look at?  

 

[MartinD]

Who's the network engineer?

 

[HalfEatenPie]

Also now you've just alienated your entire supporters. 

Come on man.  This? http://i.imgur.com/G0ZFRrh.png

You're asking people to help fund/start this project.  Those who fund it will feel like they're somehow involved/incorporated into the project.  Now you change the main image to that.   It feels like even if they invest money into you it'll be more like a charity event where they simply hand out the money.  It's not a "we" and "as a community" it's "Me"

http://i.imgur.com/QRS1u5s.png

 

[fixidixi]

C'mon kid, you dont need to start something big: its the opposite: start something small to learn and begin with. big bucks are in new ideas..

im telling you as only a small cog in a huge machine: you dont know what an isp has to handle (i only know about the eu..)

__

And the biggest issue i see with your idea is:

"I want Marin Internet Services be the internet provider people will want to sign up with - a company they'll like."

People sure as hell dont want to pay much, but high-availability and uptime costs a lot..

even if you can make something "work" it doesnt mean its going to "work well all the time" and being offline is something ppl get quite mad about in no-time... and there are no "off-hours"!!

 

[Lee]

I will put as much effort into my views on this as you have into the idea.

No.

 

[jhadley]

These crowd-funding things tend to work best for arty stuff. I don't think I've ever seen this sort of 'business' get any success from it.

 

[fisle]

If you are going to post an image of yourself and trying to look professional, I would suggest getting a haircut. Sorry mate, but nobody is gonna take you seriously with the current representation of yourself and your company.

 

[shovenose]

Also now you've just alienated your entire supporters. 

Come on man.  This? http://i.imgur.com/G0ZFRrh.png

You're asking people to help fund/start this project.  Those who fund it will feel like they're somehow involved/incorporated into the project.  Now you change the main image to that.   It feels like even if they invest money into you it'll be more like a charity event where they simply hand out the money.  It's not a "we" and "as a community" it's "Me"

http://i.imgur.com/QRS1u5s.png

That was unintentional.

Just want to point out, it's not like this is the first time somebody wants to do this business:

https://www.goubiquiti.com/wisps/unwired-ltd

Wow, what a rip off! And that map is wrong, that service is not available where I work (San Rafael), at least that I could tell.

 

[shovenose]

No problem  Contact them anyways.   Odds are they are gateway to others in the county.  Usually it works this way.

Networking goes a very long way with such things.  

Might meet or get referred to a tower owner that magically waves your fees.  

Well, I'm going to see how this crowdfunding goes. That website isn't going anywhere I'm always hesitant to ask for money.