Reserving Disk Space you Purchased from the Oversold VPS providers

[SkylarM]

Great discussion indeed! I learned how different providers think about their OpenVZ offerings.

I still have two questions in relation to this discussion:

1. Do providers consider usage of OpenVZ VPS for backup purpose as abuse (assuming disk space is consumed to full)?
2. Getting a KVM/XEN is the right solution if one intends to keep the allocated Disk & RAM fully/almost consumed?

1. This would depend on the provider. TOS/AUP etc.

2. Outside of overly extravagant means to oversell KVM/Xen, yeah it's rather hard to oversell so there's no reason you CAN'T use your resources, they should be there no matter what -- unlike some cases with OVZ where it might not be available.

 

[jarland]

Great discussion indeed! I learned how different providers think about their OpenVZ offerings.


I still have two questions in relation to this discussion:

• Do providers consider usage of OpenVZ VPS for backup purpose as abuse (assuming disk space is consumed to full)?
• Getting a KVM/XEN is the right solution if one intends to keep the allocated Disk & RAM fully/almost consumed?

For us at least, I would say...
1. Not abuse at all, fairly common use.


2. Perhaps with some hosts that value low price over quality (rather than a balance as is, I hope, more common). I welcome anyone using 100% of their resources so long as they're actually using them and following the acceptable use policy. Whereas with this discussion my position was that this is intentionally attempting to cause a host difficulty for no possible gain on either side and performs no actual function. If you need the resources, I'm happy to see to it that you have them.

 

[NodeBytes]

Coming at this from the IT point of view and not related to hosting... we frequently over assign resources to our servers total use in terms of ram. However we always leave dedicated cores and disk I/O is watched very carefully. If you need the full ram on most of these servers, you most likely are going to be biting into the cpu as well.

I don't use VPSes from LEB providers very often anymore. I only have RamNode, IPXCore, and Versatile IT 128mb VPS right now. Generally these are great and have very little if no issues. In fact I haven't had a single problem from any of them in the past 6 months besides the RamNode solus thing, but I don't blame RamNode for that. The performance on most of these providers servers is really good.

This all going to say, over allocation of resources can be done well if you know what you are doing. Many of the hosts that have been around for a while understand this and oversell properly. RamNode, IPXCore, and Catalyst are great examples of these providers.

If you don't like your VPS being oversold, don't buy a LE box.

If like me you appreciate dedicated resources and to know exactly what's going on with the server, be willing pay more for a dedi. It's worth it.

 

[drmike]

If like me you appreciate dedicated resources and to know exactly what's going on with the server, be willing pay more for a dedi. It's worth it.

If I were selling VPS services, I'd be shopping for low cost tiny dedicated style servers.

The low end price wise on dedicated servers is mainly around $25.  By end of year, I suspect there will be a few $10-$15 real dedicated offerings.  Can't wait

 

[rds100]

If I were selling VPS services, I'd be shopping for low cost tiny dedicated style servers.

The low end price wise on dedicated servers is mainly around $25.  By end of year, I suspect there will be a few $10-$15 real dedicated offerings.  Can't wait

There are dedicated offers in the $10-$15 range even now (i.e. Kimsufi) but it's only practical for older hardware that has already paid for itself. It's hard to do it for brand new hardware unless the hardware prices drop more. You know, the idea is not just to sell something, you need to return your investments too (hardware and other).

 

[drmike]

There are dedicated offers in the $10-$15 range even now (i.e. Kimsufi) but it's only practical for older hardware that has already paid for itself.

True.  Kimsufi  and OVH though seem to be bottom, but uptick for everything --- like "business" usage.

There was one $10 dedicated server based on Raspberry Pi or similar ARM I found a bit back.   Hoping to see more offers like that.  Ideally with a real SATA connector to the drive, or eSATA or maybe USB3. 

 

[rds100]

Well, there is the CubieBoard for $49 before shipping, it's ARM based and has a SATA port. Add the cost of a HDD, custom power solution, custom casing, etc. Then the needed software development for a custom system for reinstalls, management, etc.

The math says it will be more than $10-$15/month, unless the provider wants some very long ROI.

 

[maounique]

For us at least, I would say...


1. Not abuse at all, fairly common use.


2. Perhaps with some hosts that value low price over quality (rather than a balance as is, I hope, more common). I welcome anyone using 100% of their resources so long as they're actually using them and following the acceptable use policy. Whereas with this discussion my position was that this is intentionally attempting to cause a host difficulty for no possible gain on either side and performs no actual function. If you need the resources, I'm happy to see to it that you have them.

Same here, if you need the resources, fine, running serverbears, dd tests by cron, filling the disk with junk, doing traffic for the sake of it clogging not only one, but 2 providers and or your home connection, that is not only abuse, but also imoral.

I have the right to cross the street on a busy crossroad presumably without green/red lights of any kind, just a sign on the road and painted strips, if I go to the cornerstore and back, that is ok, but if i cross it nonstop from one end to another and bring a few friends along just to block traffic, then that is a problem for the general public. It is not technically illegal, but borders sabotage.

The drivers will have to stop because that is the law (priority have the pedestrians) and will not be going anywhere if the pedestrians keep crossing non-stop, so, a productive activity (presumably those ppl are not burning gas and using cars just for the sake of burning gas, using the cars and clogging the roads too) is blocked by a few people which want to prove a point. It is not acceptable.

 

[ShardHost]

If I were selling VPS services, I'd be shopping for low cost tiny dedicated style servers.

The low end price wise on dedicated servers is mainly around $25.  By end of year, I suspect there will be a few $10-$15 real dedicated offerings.  Can't wait

Can't see it happening on a wide enough scale.  Also picking up one of these $10-$15 servers you're likely to see less performance than on a VPS solution utilising high quality processors and RAID arrays.

Bottom line of all of this should be:

If you end user experience is a good one and when you want to you can use all of the resources available to you, then should it matter if your host is overcommitting them?  Nearly every shared utility/service/resource in the world is based on a fact of predictable utilisation with enough capacity to handle spikes (Gyms, Roads, Power, Water).  Reserving these resources so normal utilisation is now where the spiked utilisation was forces your provider to change their business model and your prices to rise.

At the end of the day if you are having such an experience with a provider that you feel the need to reserve resources it's probably time to end that relationship anyway. 

From reading between the lines it seems this was intended to point directly at ChicagoVPS and to support Buffalooed's agenda against them.

 

[drmike]

Nearly every shared utility/service/resource in the world is based on a fact of predictable utilisation with enough capacity to handle spikes (Gyms, Roads, Power, Water).

 

Well, power is planned based on use and factors that will increase use.  Prior load is based on whatever people actually use.  I might pull 10Kw an hour while the greenie next door pulls 10 watts.   That might be the usage pattern 80% of the days M-F.  I use mine and pay for mine,  he uses his and his is umm less.  My bill $1 his one cent.   

Aside from gyms, every other service you picked is a regulated, metered and usage based billing service.  Even roads, although less apparent --- unless you use a regular toll or high occupancy lane or have to pay for single occupancy in vehicle.

f you are having such an experience with a provider that you feel the need to reserve resources it's probably time to end that relationship anyway. 

No doubt about that, and I've said that before.  But for some reason, many providers seem to hide behind this 'we have your money and  you aren't getting anything back'.   So a forced relationship like that should have mutual consequences and risk then.

this was intended to point directly at ChicagoVPS

Not really.   CVPS is the textbook example (via their own failings in the database dumps parts one and two) of oversubscription of servers and underprovisioning of resources to accounts.  I know what they have done isn't unique.  They've just been busted in the act multiple times and many people have brought up the inconsistent disk and sever speeds lending itself to SSDs as RAM to continue such overzealous overselling.  

Go back and read this thread and see the many turns it has taken and who is selling what and who is concerned by this oh so simple idea.

 

[MartinD]

So, what was the point of this thread?

 

[ShardHost]

Well, power is planned based on use and factors that will increase use.  Prior load is based on whatever people actually use.  I might pull 10Kw an hour while the greenie next door pulls 10 watts.   That might be the usage pattern 80% of the days M-F.  I use mine and pay for mine,  he uses his and his is umm less.  My bill $1 his one cent.   

Aside from gyms, every other service you picked is a regulated, metered and usage based billing service.  Even roads, although less apparent --- unless you use a regular toll or high occupancy lane or have to pay for single occupancy in vehicle.

No doubt about that, and I've said that before.  But for some reason, many providers seem to hide behind this 'we have your money and  you aren't getting anything back'.   So a forced relationship like that should have mutual consequences and risk then.

Not really.   CVPS is the textbook example (via their own failings in the database dumps parts one and two) of oversubscription of servers and underprovisioning of resources to accounts.  I know what they have done isn't unique.  They've just been busted in the act multiple times and many people have brought up the inconsistent disk and sever speeds lending itself to SSDs as RAM to continue such overzealous overselling.  

Go back and read this thread and see the many turns it has taken and who is selling what and who is concerned by this oh so simple idea.

I've followed the thread from the start.  Your opening post directly refers to CVPS and seems like an attempt to punish their business over their business practices.  A lot of your other posts are directed at ChicagoVPS and having seen the database dump I would say you have some legitimate concerns.  Not refunding over recent events when signing up for annual plans is appalling I agree; however signing up with a provider who has such an abhorrent refund policy in their ToS in the first place was probably an indication of things to come.  We were contacted just under two years ago about the swap as RAM scenario so can believe that this might be the case.  

When we entered the VPS market we were surprised by the amount to which you can oversell OpenVZ.  Typically nodes do not bat an eyelid at 2x overcommitment, 3x?  No issue.  This is part of the reason we are moving all of our VPS services to KVM only.  We're repurposing our VZ nodes as KVM.  It was actually upsetting to have been exchanged in a PM recently with a potential client questioning the fact that we put 30 1GB VPS on a 32GB node.  If only they knew what was going on elsewhere.

 

[drmike]

...punish their business over their business practices.

Not refunding over recent events when signing up for annual plans is appalling I agree; however signing up with a provider who has such an abhorrent refund policy in their ToS in the first place was probably an indication of things to come.  

We were contacted just under two years ago about the swap as RAM scenario so can believe that this might be the case.  

When we entered the VPS market we were surprised by the amount to which you can oversell OpenVZ.  Typically nodes do not bat an eyelid at 2x overcommitment, 3x?  No issue.  This is part of the reason we are moving all of our VPS services to KVM only.  We're repurposing our VZ nodes as KVM.  It was actually upsetting to have been exchanged in a PM recently with a potential client questioning the fact that we put 30 1GB VPS on a 32GB node.  If only they knew what was going on elsewhere.

Thanks @ShardHost!

Yes, CVPS is a pet project of mine.  They aren't unique.  Just scamming folks and playing games in Buffalo. I have no love for Colocrossing either and that's where the party is and the plans originate.   Refer to the VPSACE, ServerMania, etc. all being one shell company on another thread.  More fun in the mistake by the lake.

If anything, my ax grinding is to protect folks like you who are spending good money to buy from Colocrossing, just to be pummeled by the house VPS brand with $2/2GB VPSes and have low visibility on LEB since that other cartel (VPSACE, ServerMania, etc.) are hogging up the offer space and flooding the market with Buffalo offers.

It's a screwed up business  when your colo provider goes and competes with you via their subsidiaries and their friends companies they overlook running multiple offers at same time under different company names on a predominant site they own.

And, yes I've actually tried CVPS' offerings, meh.  Yes, I've been/am a customer of other folks on CC's network.

---- I BITCH ABOUT CVPS/CC MODE REDUCTION ----

No one reads ToS.   If we did, we would get nothing else done.  I am pretty sure, most providers when they lasso you in on a an annual don't say in the process "NO REFUNDS".   Nah, it's buried in a 5-10 page legal document.  That process is dishonest.    Losing data when you said backups were part of the offering, because you weren't backing them up.  Well that is false advertising and fraud.  No refunds or credits?  Just a matter of time before someone does something about it.  Ahh, how about that 99.9% uptime guarantee?  Another breech of contract

SSD = RAM = sales offer to multiple VPS sales inquiries at CC.  Why? Cause 32GB maxed servers they have ample inventory of are at their limits, so need a new way to sell more of what you don't have.  Old concept supposedly.

I expect overselling with OpenVZ.  It's the crackhead providers virtualization of choice for the oversell-ability.  To what degree?  3X typically.  Above there, it's mighty horrible idea.  Some can go 5x+ depending on idleness of their customers.

Would I find it funny if 10% of CVPS' customers did what I recommend tomorrow --- the 10%+ who were slapped offline?  Yes, really funny.  Funny to watch Kevin Adam scramble to move people to idle/empty nodes.

 

[ShardHost]

Thanks @SharedHost!

Shardhost

 

[drmike]

Shardhost

Don't frown  Doh,  Iz a made me a type-o

ShardHost.  It's finger typing memory, I swear.  

Sorry about that mate.

 

[ShardHost]

Don't frown  Doh,  Iz a made me a type-o

ShardHost.  It's finger typing memory, I swear.  

Sorry about that mate.

Nps, It's an easy mistake.  We're waiting for the day that google starts giving people:

[SIZE=medium]Showing results for Shared Host[/SIZE]

Search instead for Shardhost

 

[jcaleb]

As a customer, I don't care if host oversell or not.  It's none of my business.  I should not care about that.

I have neighbors, that is understood.  I know I should not pound the servers that will affect others.

Now, limiting what I can do to the VPS depending on motive?  In my opinion, if I max my resources, I am not attacking my neighbors.  Because it should not affect my neighbors.  It's just that incidentally, it affects the business model of my hosts.  Which I shouldn't care about.  Because the host and I agreed at a price that I can consume such and such resources.

Why should morality be included in the equation?  If I pad my server with porn data for backup purpose, am I abusing?  That is to some extent immoral right?  But why is it that because the business plan of the host is affected, suddenly I am doing something immoral?  And should not be allowed to do that?

Host should audit client's motives? Really?

 

[jcaleb]

Another question.  If I do this on KVMs, I am sure no one will complain that I am doing something immoral.  Because it is not oversold.  Hence it all boils down to issue that we should customers should not exploit that hosts are overselling.

 

[jarland]

As a customer, I don't care if host oversell or not. It's none of my business. I should not care about that.


I have neighbors, that is understood. I know I should not pound the servers that will affect others.


Now, limiting what I can do to the VPS depending on motive? In my opinion, if I max my resources, I am not attacking my neighbors. Because it should not affect my neighbors. It's just that incidentally, it affects the business model of my hosts. Which I shouldn't care about. Because the host and I agreed at a price that I can consume such and such resources.


Why should morality be included in the equation? If I pad my server with porn data for backup purpose, am I abusing? That is to some extent immoral right? But why is it that because the business plan of the host is affected, suddenly I am doing something immoral? And should not be allowed to do that?


Host should audit client's motives? Really?

Your argument could be applied to a DDOS, so long as no other client notices that you're using me in your cluster. You paid to burst a gigabit line, you should be able to do it right? For that matter, you paid for access to my client area so you should be able to Robert Clarke it, it's not your problem if you cause me harm its my job to mitigate it with no concern for what you're up to, right? I would disagree quite a bit. It is absolutely my job to know my clients and their needs. I love to provide a personal touch by talking to people and understanding their needs. It provides context for my administration. When I see the usage in context, I celebrate my client's popularity and I work to keep the road open for their traffic. Now, if a client tells me that their motive is to damage me or other clients, am I to not react?


You can't just go auditing for motive, but when it presents itself you have a moral obligation to act on behalf of your business and your other clients. Keep in mind that a host's failure is the client's loss. Either both succeed or neither succeeds. A client who has no care for their provider is best refunded.


That better for helping you sharpen the tool?

 

[willie]

It's just that incidentally, it affects the business model of my hosts.  Which I shouldn't care about....

Host should audit client's motives? Really?

It goes both ways.  If you don't care about them, why should they care about you?  In the world of private ownership, hosts (like restaurants) are entitled to refuse service to anyone they choose, for any reason they like.  Such as being an annoying customer, whether a moral or an immoral one.  There are limited exceptions such as race discrimination but that's going to be a difficult issue to prove about an internet product.  Hope this helps.