WebHostingTalk Worst of the Hosting Industry

[drmike]

Reply about Pie's comments.... (love you man, so nothing personal)

Always as a rule of thumb you should probably do some background research on who you're buying from. 

Problem is customers and especially who WHT is attracting these days aren't comprehending things.  English literacy and amount of non English speakers is very common.  Heck, even native English speakers these days are barely surpassing grunting on average and comprehension is in toilet.

Saying customers should do things proactively is what smart folks do.   Average person though, tssk, wishful thinking and re-education.  They choke on that CORPORATE badge and say seems legit.  I can't blame them.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=greenvaluehost+review

Look what Google says.  It's a mixed basket and considering how many arsons committed by GVH on customers you'd logically expect search to be a bloodbath, it isn't.  Some of those sites have glowing reviews.

 The amount of manpower required to sift through those "Audits" and "application process" can be time consuming.  People assume it's incredibly quick and easy since they can do it too from their armchair, however (due to the capacity I bet WHT gets) they'd have to hire a few people full-time to sift through the amount of "crap applications".  Don't forget the amount of PMs and messages you get from other individuals who are also demanding your attention on this and that issue and "this person angered me because so and so and should be banned" or "this person said this about me and I find it uncalled for I want you to delete it and their account" (you'd be surprised...).  In my opinion, it's simply asking for an increased workload from the WHT team. 

This is why these folks should just get out of what they are doing.  I forget how much Penton spent on WHT and how much was attributable to WHT side of things.  It was a metric f-ton.

I'll audit applications and beat the living hell out applicants pulling crap $7.50 per applicant.  $450 corporate membership for quarter more than covers that.  Even if we say $45 cost plenty of fat on that bone for them to pave their place in poshness and pay real wages and live it up.

Why they don't want to do it that they don't want to assume any legal liability for vetting someone and then the company or sole proprietor goes off and does stupid.  But, that's what insurance is for, bonding, etc.   Real companies with STATUS BEARING monikers in the real world = MONEY = baseline vetting.

I've said it hundred or more times, but the age of the standard for hosting being offers shoehorned in forums soft and no biz intelligence is tired and lousy excuse for solution.  

All over the planet, many many decades ago CONSUMER PROTECTION became standard and pursued by civilized nations to protect their citizens from unsavory CORPORATIONS and SNAKE OIL SALESMEN who will do anything to divide people from their money.

Hosting sites need to step it way up and protect the customers or they are going to find themselves with quiet, empty forums populated by just the providers shooting spitballs at each other.   I really think the industry has hit this point years ago though and is broken.  Providers just haven't realized it yet.

 

[HalfEatenPie]

Cool.
 

1.a) They are in my opinion, I think a lot, and everyone knows about them and they play a huge influence in hosts reputations,  They own the market for anything web-hosting related, I cannot find a bigger forum. Although, their forum activity has gone down, I still believe the majority of the hosting industry knows about them.

 
While I agree that WHT is definitely one of the bigger web hosting forums, just because it's the "biggest one" doesn't mean it should be policed in the way you recommend.  They operated a certain way, they grew up operating that specific way, and some how people enjoyed it and the site grew.  Just because the site is much bigger now and they're operating in a specific way doesn't mean they need to change their ways.  If you disagree with it then move to a different site.  I mean after all I left LEB/LET after the entire ColoCrossing shenanigan.  I do read an odd post here and there but overall it's not their problem if you're angry because of "ethics".  Because to iNET, it's just business.  You're expecting a private company to become a public service just because "they're big".
 

Well, what I would say to this is don't offer the corporate tag then if they cannot handle it. They are getting paid $1,400  a year and if they cannot handle or stay up to date with QA and handling of background information for hosts, they are just deceiving future clients / visitors that are looking for reputable hosts. That's my main point / argument in the whole video really, it's sad if you think about. The regular Joe comes to WHT and finds a thread, sees that, that person has a 'corporate title' and automatically deems trustworthiness and probably doesn't even google them or look up reviews. That's now how the corporate tag is right now with no QA background checks done and it's a false promise.

What I'm getting at is you're adding in additional "responsibilities" that are clearly not outlined as a service they provide.  An actual informed individual would have probably seen the "Corporate Partner" and seen what is required to become a corporate partner, then find out all you need is to fork over a few hundred dollars every few months.  Maybe iNET could handle it better by being more up-front to new visitors/account creators as to what a corporate partner actually means, but the bottom line is they're not obligated to and at the very end it involves the customer being an informed individual.  

I also think you're giving the "regular Joe" way too little credit.  I mean I know people who are absolutely considered "redneck" and yet will spend hours researching and making sure that their next purchase will be exactly what they need.  

The bottom line is that the medium our industry is in (the internet) provides the uniqueness that almost anyone can become "Super CEO of Marketing Manager Deluxe Corporate".  However, just like in real life, a well calibrated bullshit meter is needed.  Just because there are laws in the US making Pyramid Schemes illegal doesn't stop someone from trying to pull one over you.  Even then the proper government agency will not invest too many resources investigating it unless it hits headlines or if it affects a large amount of individuals.  Best form of defense against this is knowledge.  Don't assume the Average Joe is a Lazy Joe. 
 

Oh, I agree entirely and that's the problem I have with WHT. The average joe doesn't do that, but they rely on just the corporate tag and boom, that's it. As I said in my video when I talked about the Indian web master analogy.  Basically, I said that because I launched one of my Indian friends website for him and before the whole process he told me he was looking on webhostingtalk and linked me a thread (this was a couple years ago), and said he told me he liked this host and I asked.. 'oh why?' he said well, his profile seems professional and he has a 'forum badge'. 
 
I said, ohh okay let me check him out, etc then I, personally, did the reviews / background checking. It was for a company called 'StableHost', not sure if you've heard about them, but they turned out great. What if I wasn't there? What if he saw GreenValueHost instead and made the purchase, but, then to find out his website is offline 2 weeks later? That's not fair for the average joe trying to find a host, it's a sham by WHT to mislead viewers into a false promise of their corporate tag. It's not 100% WHT's fault, but they play a huge role in it and need to be held accountable.  

It's a false sense of "Professionalism" that your friend shouldn't have gotten to begin with.  Granted I totally understand if English is his second language, there's nothing we can do to protect every single individual on the internet who speak a vast different variations of languages.  My argument is that demanding WHT take the full costs behind it is kinda ridiculous since in no where does it state that Corporate Partners are reliable.  

A very basic economic analysis (and basic decision making science) is the cost-benefit analysis.  

Private sector wishes the maximize profit.

Public sector (ignoring all the "tinfoil hat" people who say the government is out to get them) wishes to maximize benefit.  

Your entire argument (from my understanding anyways) goes against the basic principles of economics.  Applying to the emotional side of any business is a rare occurrence that is mostly done for marketing points when they dun goofed.  They're not a public service, they're a private entity.  While I agree a service that organizes/manages this (in a totally idealistic way) would be great, in reality I find it incredibly hard to do.  Therefore, I understand you might have your frustrations with WHT, however I don't see this as a major problem.  

Edit: @drmike, much love and respect to you as well.  However in my point of view I see no problem with what WHT is doing.  I mean something can/should be done, but I don't see it happening anytime soon and any attempts at a "reform" or basically anything like suggested in the video to be fruitless. 

 

[drmike]

I welcome the public scrutiny.  Pay to play rackets should always be scrutinized.

I like what vpsB has done to reign in providers and prevent this place from being a spam dumping ground.  Simple rules.  

Drive by spammers won't comply with rules, so their crap never sees day of light.  Those doing bare minimum often self prune or stay in non-verified providers offer area which is only visible to logged in members of vpsBoard, which makes it fairly useless.

WHT would do better to scrap all their verbage about membership and make it straight up PAY TO POST OFFERS.  Want every 7 days = cheap plan.  Want ever 3 days = expensive plan.

No account glitter, nada.   No inferred anything.  No confused viewers... nothing...

That doesn't do the vetting process and all, but if folks don't bring such soon I am going to build it and jump in with a new site to toss this industry sideways.

 

[MannDude]

I'll admit I didn't expect much from the video and wasn't thrilled to see it 18 minutes long... however it was actually put together well and I like talk radio so the sound of an angry man yelling is pleasant to me.

Though regarding the corporate/premium membership, I used to maintain one in the past but it was almost purely for the premium member chat thread. It was mostly pretty lax which is what made it great (but sadly became stricter over time) and there was a good tight knit group of us on there. Over time we migrated our chats and discussions elsewhere. Aside from some deals/offers you may see in there from a provider selling off old hardware there wasn't too much going on.

The thing is, the Corporate badge does convince some visitors that someone is trustworthy. It shouldn't, but it does. The only real value I see in the badge is the perk of being able to post your offer more times in the same period as non-badge holders. WHT offers is essentially a sea full of providers who are competing with their own damned resellers in the same forums for the same customers. Only difference is that the Corporate provider gets to post what, 3X as many offers in the same time period as the person reselling from them without the badge?

Personally, I think the badges and stickies are more about status. Companies do it not because their advertising/marketing money couldn't be spent better elsewhere (It almost certainly could) but they do it more just to have the highest status they can obtain on a marketplace that they're active in. It's not really uncommon behavior. Some would pay $5,000 for "Platinum Corporate" if it was offered just for the sake of being the "Platinum Corporate member" even if it offered no benefits other than a different badge.

Not to toot my own horn or anything because the system we have in place is far from perfect but it's certainly a step in the proper direction. At least our "Verified Providers" underwent a short application process where we review their WhoIS information, check that they are legally operating by requesting documentation of such and other things. I've also made it known that just because the met the requirements for the "Verified Provider" status that research should be done and that it is not an endorsement from vpsB.

It's actually been on the roadmap since the beginning of this year to get the Provider Database added to The Library to record the public information of providers such as business status, business type, contact details, WhoIS snapshots, links to relevant discussions/reviews/announcements/drama, and have a record of other noteworthy content on each profile. Just a lot of manual data entry and page creation though I will hopefully soon be able to mark it off the whiteboard to-do list.

 

[Dillybob]

I really have no other arguments, I respect HalfEatenPie's views but I think you know a lot more than me in terms of the marketing sector and business side of things so I'm just going to gracefully step down .

Nothing wrong with you, or this board, just... I accept defeat. It most likely is more of a emotional thing with me, maybe it's just more anecdotal than others. (Your redneck experience vs my Indian friend experience). And you're right, they are a private entity and not a public service so in reality, they really can do whatever the fuck they want. I just want my video to WARN other hosts that these benefits (and they will take them for what they are worth) are not worth it whatsoever, except for the ad-posting time interval one from 7 days to 3.  I still believe all the other benefits are horseshit and I'm very firm on that belief. I do accept your argument about they are a private entity though, that does make a lot sense now.

 

[Dillybob]

I'll admit I didn't expect much from the video and wasn't thrilled to see it 18 minutes long... however it was actually put together well and I like talk radio so the sound of an angry man yelling is pleasant to me.

Though regarding the corporate/premium membership, I used to maintain one in the past but it was almost purely for the premium member chat thread. It was mostly pretty lax which is what made it great (but sadly became stricter over time) and there was a good tight knit group of us on there. Over time we migrated our chats and discussions elsewhere. Aside from some deals/offers you may see in there from a provider selling off old hardware there wasn't too much going on.

The thing is, the Corporate badge does convince some visitors that someone is trustworthy. It shouldn't, but it does. The only real value I see in the badge is the perk of being able to post your offer more times in the same period as non-badge holders. WHT offers is essentially a sea full of providers who are competing with their own damned resellers in the same forums for the same customers. Only difference is that the Corporate provider gets to post what, 3X as many offers in the same time period as the person reselling from them without the badge?

Personally, I think the badges and stickies are more about status. Companies do it not because their advertising/marketing money couldn't be spent better elsewhere (It almost certainly could) but they do it more just to have the highest status they can obtain on a marketplace that they're active in. It's not really uncommon behavior. Some would pay $5,000 for "Platinum Corporate" if it was offered just for the sake of being the "Platinum Corporate member" even if it offered no benefits other than a different badge.

Not to toot my own horn or anything because the system we have in place is far from perfect but it's certainly a step in the proper direction. At least our "Verified Providers" underwent a short application process where we review their WhoIS information, check that they are legally operating by requesting documentation of such and other things. I've also made it known that just because the met the requirements for the "Verified Provider" status that research should be done and that it is not an endorsement from vpsB.

It's actually been on the roadmap since the beginning of this year to get the Provider Database added to The Library to record the public information of providers such as business status, business type, contact details, WhoIS snapshots, links to relevant discussions/reviews/announcements/drama, and have a record of other noteworthy content on each profile. Just a lot of manual data entry and page creation though I will hopefully soon be able to mark it off the whiteboard to-do list.

That's exactly why I made the video. You nailed it right on the head! opcorn:  opcorn:   'It shouldn't, but it does'. Keyword is: 'it does'. Which is just so, so sad how WHT has influenced that. (Even though, no disrespect to HalfEatenPie, I know it's a private entity, but the fact of the matter is the tile does play a negative impact on average joe's finding hosts).  That's where HalfEatenPie is talking about how it's more of a emotional problem than an economic one, which he right really. Why should we give a flying toot about the average joe? Well, I guess just out of sheer compassion I guess because I was there at that point when I was younger? I don't know.  My video is more geared towards how the benefits are garbage, but, I did talk about this towards the end of it so I totally understand where HalfEatenPie is coming from.

 

[MartinD]

.... so the sound of an angry man yelling is pleasant to me.

Just remember you said that..!

 

[HalfEatenPie]

That's exactly why I made the video. You nailed it right on the head! opcorn:  opcorn:   'It shouldn't, but it does'. Keyword is: 'it does'. Which is just so, so sad how WHT has influenced that. (Even though, no disrespect to HalfEatenPie, I know it's a private entity, but the fact of the matter is the tile does play a negative impact on average joe's finding hosts).  That's where HalfEatenPie is talking about how it's more of a emotional problem than an economic one, which he right really. Why should we give a flying toot about the average joe? Well, I guess just out of sheer compassion I guess because I was there at that point when I was younger? I don't know.  My video is more geared towards how the benefits are garbage, but, I did talk about this towards the end of it so I totally understand where HalfEatenPie is coming from.

Yeah I mean it's definitely an emotional issue for many people that's for sure.  Just as a business-wise I didn't see a problem with it. 

I'm also equivalent to a crotchety old grandpa so it's my own deconstruction.  You're more than free to toot your own horn as much as you want, I'm simply here to bitch about things.  

I'm also really glad it was really civilized! 

 

[Dillybob]

Yeah I mean it's definitely an emotional issue for many people that's for sure.  Just as a business-wise I didn't see a problem with it. 

I'm also equivalent to a crotchety old grandpa so it's my own deconstruction.  You're more than free to toot your own horn as much as you want, I'm simply here to bitch about things.  

I'm also really glad it was really civilized! 

I'd say it works pretty damn good, you made some very convincing arguments that really made think and quite frankly, not a lot of people can do that to me . I'm very, VERY egotistical, but show a dash of humbleness when stumped or questioned about my beliefs.

 

[KuJoe]

So the corruption at LET/LEB doesn't get it's own video? You think the Corporate badge thing is ruining the industry? That's nothing compared to the other practices going on. No offense but you're complaining about the wrong forum and worse yet, you're supporting a company that has resulted in thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars in actual theft. I suggest you do your research about this industry before making a video about what you think is ruining it.

 

[Dillybob]

So the corruption at LET/LEB doesn't get it's own video? 

You have the honors... let me know when it's up.  opcorn:

 

[Criot]

I find there is still some interesting content on WHT despite the offers and posts which are solely intended to promote the users signature, that's certainly annoying, a thread full of different people posting the exact same thing isn't exactly helpful.

 

[zed]

WHT has zero respect for new visitors and I explain it all in my video. Rendering it will take a while it's 18 minutes long.


I went through each Corporate Membership benefit and absolutely destroyed how each one is literally worthless, they are in for a treat.


Nonethless, I went and showed how they are being manipulators in trying to control the hosting industry with their false promise corporate tags and mislead viewers, it's so sickening.

18 minutes of babbling about WHT, are you serious? Show me on this doll where WHT touched you.

 

[Dillybob]

18 minutes of babbling about WHT, are you serious? Show me on this doll where WHT touched you.

Show me on this doll where WHT hasn't had an impact on the general hosting industry by misleading people with it's corporate false promise tiles. Not only that, but gratis corporate memberships aloft. The place is an absolute cesspool and will continue to die slowly and slowly per year, just like the graphs from 2013, 2014 prove.

I'd say only about 5 minutes were babbling, unless, ofcourse you honestly believe their corporate benefits are worth something of value besides the ad decreasing post time one. Because you know, having your webhosting company listed on HostingCatalog.com is of great value.  :lol:

 

[Hxxx]

WHT is a business, is not a community. I dont see anything bad with corporate badges or the super expensive stickies. Again, is a business, nobody is pointing a gun at you, telling that you have to buy from them. Ive seen many hosts during the years, being success and are not corporate members NOR pay stickies. 

 

[DomainBop]

 You think the Corporate badge thing is ruining the industry? That's nothing compared to the other practices going on.

WHT and LET are minor problems compared to the thing that has really made the webhosting industry a minefield for customers over the past 10-15 years:  the introduction of  "host in a box" automation tools like CPanel/SolusVM, etc that made it possible for thousands of technically incompetent idiots  to setup hosting "businesses" funded by their allowances and call themselves "CEO" and sucker the unsuspecting into giving their new "businesses" money.  

Reading WHT and LET it doesn't take long to discover that a very sizable percentages of hosts posting on those forums don't know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to technical knowledge, business knowledge, or anything else it takes to build a sustainable business, and "hosting in a box" automation tools (not a WHT corporate badge or having LET's owner as your childhood friend) are 100% to blame for the fact that these "providers" decided to setup a hosting business rather than be normal children and get a paper route or open a lemonade stand.  

WebHostingTalk  CPANEL/SOLUSVM/ Worst of the Hosting Industry!!! DIE, DIE, DIE, HOST IN A BOX AUTOMATION TOOLS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fixed that for you.

 

[joepie91]

WHT is a business, is not a community.

Then perhaps it should start representing itself as such.

I'm a little tired of these "it's a business, nothing wrong with that" type of arguments, frankly. Something being a business or not has absolutely no relevance whatsoever when the discussion is about the ethics of certain behaviour.

The stickies are dubiously organized at best, the badges are plain misleading - and nothing is really being done to correct this misleading impression. Informed complacency makes guilty. WHT is absolutely behaving unethically, and whether it is a business or not is irrelevant.

 

[Dillybob]

Then perhaps it should start representing itself as such.

I'm a little tired of these "it's a business, nothing wrong with that" type of arguments, frankly. Something being a business or not has absolutely no relevance whatsoever when the discussion is about the ethics of certain behaviour.

The stickies are dubiously organized at best, the badges are plain misleading - and nothing is really being done to correct this misleading impression. Informed complacency makes guilty. WHT is absolutely behaving unethically, and whether it is a business or not is irrelevant.

..Fuck. Why did I have to make a video, you summed up everything I stand for in my 18 min video and I probably still didn't get it as concise as you!

Edit: I'm off to bed though.. so tired of all this WHT stuff (even though I love it, I can only despise the company/site so much before I get bored and tired) will be back tomorrow ~

 

[DomainBop]

Why they don't want to do it that they don't want to assume any legal liability for vetting someone and then the company or sole proprietor goes off and does stupid.  But, that's what insurance is for, bonding, etc.   Real companies with STATUS BEARING monikers in the real world = MONEY = baseline vetting.

The BBB has managed to avoid legal liability for years for its claims that "BBB accredited" businesses  with A ratings are properly vetted and trustworthy when in reality all it means is the business coughed up the annual fee to buy accredited status...remember CVPS's A rating when it was paying dues or better yet the A- rating that was given by the BBB to Hamas.  The BBB is probably the worst offender out there of instilling false confidence in consumers with its trust badges (especially since many consumers mistakenly think the BBB is a government agency or mistakenly think it has legal authority to go after offenders)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo8kfV9kONw

 

[sleddog]

I get bored and tired

I'm bored and tired of these "WARNING!" "UNETHICAL!" "SCAM!" etc. threads.

An 18 minute video about WHT practices is just out to lunch. Likewise, all these GVH threads are just senseless. Neither accomplishes anything useful. All this endless "investigation" and "exposure" of this and that company's practices accomplish nothing, except give a voice to the pissed off people of the world. It's just tiresome.

If you don't like WHT, don't go there. If you have a vision for something better, then build it.