Thinking about not using paypal.

[coreyman]

It has very little to do with being 'LowEnd', and much more to do with being a 'host-from-a-box' that doesn't do proper QC on new signups.  If you let "Abc Abc" of "123 Fake st" sign up without a second thought, you're going to get abuse no matter what your price point is.

Just to put things into perspective - for years we were the "low-end" (back when that meant low spec, not low quality - who do you think everyone copied the 15$/yr plans from?), and I would *maybe* see 2-3 client-initiated disputes a year.  The pricepoint/market/<other excuse here> isn't the problem - a 'provider' thinking that using WHMCS means he doesn't need to actually audit his business is the problem.

If you are receiving enough chargebacks and disputes for it to be such a major concern.. perhaps it's time to stop assuming the problem is with the clients, and determine instead what you're dropping the ball on to make that many people unhappy.

Well actually I was auditing my income and expenses for 2013 and the ratio of people doing chargebacks on paypal was higher than 2checkout last year.

I handle all of the disputes and 80% of the time the client is being unreasonable - paypal gave the money back when they shouldn't have. If someone is suspended for abuse they usually open a paypal dispute.

 

[Aldryic C'boas]

I handle all of the disputes and 80% of the time the client is being unreasonable - paypal gave the money back when they shouldn't have. If someone is suspended for abuse they usually open a paypal dispute.

I've rarely seen someone that would open a dispute be reasonable - if they were, the issue could've been resolved before things were that far along.

You're selling intangible goods - if you're losing those disputes, then you're doing something horribly wrong.  And if you have enough 'abuse' and disputes that it's that serious of a concern - again, you should spend some time figuring out why these issues occur, rather than putting fault on PayPal, who has no bearing on your business model.

Five+ years handling billing for Fran, over 10k active clients;  we've only lost three legitimate disputes.  And in each of those 'losses', it was a fault on our end, and I initiated a refund for the client once the issue was investigated.  You shouldn't be having that many disputes to begin with, let alone losing enough of them to be hurting your income.

 

[coreyman]

I've rarely seen someone that would open a dispute be reasonable - if they were, the issue could've been resolved before things were that far along.

You're selling intangible goods - if you're losing those disputes, then you're doing something horribly wrong.  And if you have enough 'abuse' and disputes that it's that serious of a concern - again, you should spend some time figuring out why these issues occur, rather than putting fault on PayPal, who has no bearing on your business model.

Five+ years handling billing for Fran, over 10k active clients;  we've only lost three legitimate disputes.  And in each of those 'losses', it was a fault on our end, and I initiated a refund for the client once the issue was investigated.  You shouldn't be having that many disputes to begin with, let alone losing enough of them to be hurting your income.

Well it was over a grand out in disputes last year... and it just sickens me that some of these people won the disputes when they shouldn't have. I guess I should call paypal for every dispute like others suggested.

 

[Aldryic C'boas]

Dude, a GRAND in disputes?  That's absolutely insane.

You're completely missing the point here, though - the problem isn't that you're losing some of the disputes.  The problem is that you have that many in the first place.

If you are receiving enough chargebacks and disputes for it to be such a major concern.. perhaps it's time to stop assuming the problem is with the clients, and determine instead what you're dropping the ball on to make that many people unhappy.

Seriously - instead of worrying about PayPal right now, start figuring out why you have so many unhappy clients.  Fix the root of the problem, and your disputes will go away.

 

[coreyman]

Dude, a GRAND in disputes?  That's absolutely insane.

You're completely missing the point here, though - the problem isn't that you're losing some of the disputes.  The problem is that you have that many in the first place.

Seriously - instead of worrying about PayPal right now, start figuring out why you have so many unhappy clients.  Fix the root of the problem, and your disputes will go away.

It seems that I just attract abuse and spammers, I've already hinted at the fact that most all of our disputes were opened after the client was suspended for abuse. I don't know what else you want me to say? I've got maxmind rolling on our site and the 'orders' page in WHMCS is constantly 40% filled with 'Fraud' attempts.

 

[concerto49]

It seems that I just attract abuse and spammers, I've already hinted at the fact that most all of our disputes were opened after the client was suspended for abuse. I don't know what else you want me to say? I've got maxmind rolling on our site and the 'orders' page in WHMCS is constantly 40% filled with 'Fraud' attempts.

Manually review some orders - fake address, same guys ordering with different names - all sorts of things to look out for. Block the offending domains in WHMCS so they don't come back in another form.

Use FraudRecord.

There are lots of things to do. Once you stop a few gangs, they learn and know you're not a good target.

Low prices are another reason.

 

[Aldryic C'boas]

Maxmind and WHMCS are tools - just like a jigsaw, sloppy and dangerous unless you've taken the time to learn how they work.

The best advice I can give you, is to never fully rely on automation, and always be wary of third party tools.  You should be using Maxmind to stop blatant fraud - open proxies, known dirty IPs, excessive distance from given addresses, etc.  There will always be false positives;  take the time to actually go through the fraud orders.  Reach out to the ones you feel to be legit, let them know you've cleared the flags and they can proceed with payment.

Likewise, actually take the time to look at your paid orders.  Is the contact information legit?  Are they using someone else's PayPal/etc?  Did they give a fake or non-residential address (you'll get folks trying to give you the address of UPS and other public buildings)?  If you're provisioning any order that gets by Maxmind, then you can't claim to be surprised when "Bob Smith" of "123 Fake St, Mississippi" who connected from an Indonesian ISP causes problems.

 

[coreyman]

Maxmind and WHMCS are tools - just like a jigsaw, sloppy and dangerous unless you've taken the time to learn how they work.

The best advice I can give you, is to never fully rely on automation, and always be wary of third party tools.  You should be using Maxmind to stop blatant fraud - open proxies, known dirty IPs, excessive distance from given addresses, etc.  There will always be false positives;  take the time to actually go through the fraud orders.  Reach out to the ones you feel to be legit, let them know you've cleared the flags and they can proceed with payment.

Likewise, actually take the time to look at your paid orders.  Is the contact information legit?  Are they using someone else's PayPal/etc?  Did they give a fake or non-residential address (you'll get folks trying to give you the address of UPS and other public buildings)?  If you're provisioning any order that gets by Maxmind, then you can't claim to be surprised when "Bob Smith" of "123 Fake St, Mississippi" who connected from an Indonesian ISP causes problems.

I agree and I do take measures on orders I think are fraud and orders I think should have gotten through the automated fraud system.

 

[RLT]

Maxmind hates my phone. Any order gets marked as fraud. The IP shows as PA when I'm in OH.

 

[splitice]

Blocking TOR exit nodes is probably the best single thing you can do, atleast from my experience.

But disputes of that magnitude... I'm surprised its taken this long for you to jump on it.

 

[markjcc]

What you can do instead of dropping paypal is to get a third party payment solution such as 2Checkout which processes paypal payments and deposits/ sends a check into your bank account

 

[kunnu]

Filter orders and accept orders only from verified accounts and If name/address does not match with client area details then immediately refund money and reject order.

1. Use Fraud Records (Report order If they open a dispute and check every orders with FraudRecords)

2. Maxmind - Do not accept order If distance from IP and billing location is longer then xyz km.

3. Add a note in your PayPal account so when your customer try to open a dispute, they will read your message(you can ask them in message to email me or contact me and I will refund your money,etc.. and give them your emergency email address/phone number.)

 

[zionvps]

Paypal may not be perfect, but still it is a good choice due to many reasons.

First of all, about 50% of the potential clients would be using paypal, it is kind of industry standard.

Second, it helps startup hosts to operate due to their easy verification policy and 0 setup fees.

 

[switsys]

Well it was over a grand out in disputes last year...

WTF!? I've never even heard of anything like this.

I've already hinted at the fact that most all of our disputes were opened after the client was suspended for abuse.

How on Earth can you lose that many disputes, if suspensions are legitimate?

 

[coreyman]

WTF!? I've never even heard of anything like this.

How on Earth can you lose that many disputes, if suspensions are legitimate?

idk that's why I was thinking about dropping paypal.

 

[switsys]

idk that's why I was thinking about dropping paypal.

Yeah, but that would be economic suicide.

 

[jvkz]

Buyer trust more in paying with PayPal more then paying with credit card... End of story

 

[LusoVPS]

It has very little to do with being 'LowEnd', and much more to do with being a 'host-from-a-box' that doesn't do proper QC on new signups.  If you let "Abc Abc" of "123 Fake st" sign up without a second thought, you're going to get abuse no matter what your price point is.

I agree. Even if maxmind doesn't detect this, we do make a manual validation on every payment/order to avoid abuse at max.

 

[InertiaNetworks-John]

Personally, it would be a lot easier if everyone used CC, but people like their PayPal, so that is what we offer!

PayPal subscriptions are a pain in the rear.

 

[HostNIT]

Do any of you currently not use paypal at all? Did you once use paypal and then stop? Did that cause you to lose any business?

I'm asking because I'm sick of the paypal resolution process - they pretty much 'hide' the resolution that they(paypal) decide on unless you strictly stay on top of it and go look at all the past 15 day resolutions one by one and write them down. I tried to get a report of cases and it just says 'Case Closed'. I looked at a case one time and a customer that SHOULD NOT have got a refund (an abusive customer) ... they gave him a refund >.>

If you feel that a customer is a possible Fraud Case or may possibly try to cheat you{just being blunt} then I'd recommend having them sign an Authorization Form. I don't know if I can link to a sample on here, but the Authorization form will give you a better chance at winning your case.  I really wouldn't recommend giving up PayPal because it's really widely used and everything that dishonest customers do on PayPal they can do with any other payment processing system. You can PM me for more information on how to protect yourself.